Now that I am home and back in my right mind, I wanted to point fans of #dnd and
@downwithdnd
to the new
@misdirectedmark
forums, where you can chat with
@Thelight101
and me about the game and what we talk about on the show. Interesting topic at the moment: does #dnd as a game need ability scores from 3-18+, or can we move on to just use modifiers, if you cut nostalgia from the equation? https://t.co/cgbYcjKtwT— Shawn Merwin, floating on the River Styx (@shawnmerwin) September 12, 2019
I think brand new players should only see the modifiers. I see too many instances where you say something like "what's your dexterity" and they go +15 and… that's not their fault.
Is it still D&D without ANY numbers? "This is the clonky way it works" is part of the brand IMO.
— Six Hit Points (@sixhitpoints) September 12, 2019
If we rolled for ability scores, did the subtract 10, divide in half calculation to get the modifier, wrote the modifier down, and then tossed out the ability score entirely, I would be very happy.
The nice bell curve of 4d6 drop low is the only good part of ability scores IMO. It removes some granularity with respect to ability score increases, though. You can no longer get an ASI of 1.
— M.T. Black (@MTBlack2567) September 12, 2019
Personally, that doesn't bother me. I like that small level of granularity, but I would gladly sacrifice it for the increased simplicity.
— James Haeck 💍 Betrothed Beholder (@jamesjhaeck) September 12, 2019
There are some minor uses in fifth (primarily with multiclassing and with some feat stuff), but the only times in the non-optional rules it really comes up are when ability scores increase, and with how heavier armors affect you. Indeed. Most of the uses of the ability score could easily be switched over to reference the modifier instead.
— Shawn Merwin, floating on the River Styx (@shawnmerwin) September 12, 2019
Yeah, no need for #dnd ability scores. I got first-hand experience on this from my daughter last week as we worked on her first character. She was confused about why the ability scores were on the sheet AT ALL if the main things that mattered on the rolls were the modifiers. Your daughter is wise beyond her years! 🙂
— Shawn Merwin, floating on the River Styx (@shawnmerwin) September 12, 2019
An argument in favor of a return to rolling for ability scores than for proclaiming ability scores dead. I understand the need to rely on fixed or point buy for organized play, but doing so throws away so much opportunity for diversity in character concepts. You can still have diversity in character concepts without ability scores. You can randomize your abilities without the clunky translation of obsolete ability scores into the modifiers that the game actually uses. You could still do arrays or point buys as well.
— Shawn Merwin, floating on the River Styx (@shawnmerwin) September 12, 2019
The rolled stats versus point buy/array stats is a different discussion than the one I'm looking at.
— Shawn Merwin, floating on the River Styx (@shawnmerwin) September 12, 2019
I Suppose only the bonus is what matters but without the flavor of ability score it starts getting into the realm of DnD that I don’t care for I am not grokking this. Other than nostalgia, what's the difference between saying "My strength is 18" and "My strength is +4?" For players we are trying to teach the game, which is easier to understand?
— Shawn Merwin, floating on the River Styx (@shawnmerwin) September 12, 2019
Trick question right? You can’t have dnd without nostalgia.
“The rolled stats versus point buy/array stats is a different discussion than the one I’m looking at.” I’m shocked that someone as involved in the game industry as Shawn doesn’t see how these discussions are intrinsically linked.
We care about the attribute score because of rolling stats. 10-11 being the stated ‘average’ score and getting no modifiers because it is ‘average’ isn’t just because a game designer decided that was going to be the baseline and modifiers would go up and down from there. It is the average because it is the actual mathematical average of 3D6! The dice already established the baseline stat when rolling them, and enforce it because of the bell curve of results. Exceptional stats are truly exceptional. Even the 4D6 drop the lowest method just skews the curve, the curve is still there and getting up to a stat that gives you a +4 modifier is rare. An array or point buy method gets rid of that standard or the impact of having that high score. Everyone will end up with one if it’s in the Array, or buy one if they want it in Point Buy.
Wanting to get rid of attribute scores entirely is inherently wanting to get rid of rolling stats. Even if you never write the attribute on the character sheet, and don’t worry about +/-1 stat modifiers (maybe all modifiers are equivalent to a current +/-2), you still need to determine what your starting stats are. If you’re rolling, then the attribute score is still needed at character creation at minimum.
Is it really that hard to understand? I’ve introduced plenty of new players recently, one of them being 9 years old and no one has had any difficulty figuring it out.
I literally just did this two weeks ago. For a birthday party I had a bunch of noobs who wanted to game, so I was creating a ‘condensed’ character sheet and simplified rules… It worked great, and to the point of the article, minimized the confusion that an extra six – essentially unused – numbers would have generated.
I feel the nostalgia angle, as I’ve been gaming since ’79. But, other than tweaking the rules around stat increases and a few other areas… The system would be completely intact without the ability score range.
As a caster my ability scores determine the highest tiers of magic I can use. Just looking at ability scores a 14 and a 15 are both +2 but the spell choices at 4th and 5th levels are very different. Without a half bonus the current system would require huge bonuses to justify a difference between spell levels, especially at the high end. Your fighter would work perfectly well with a +4 or +5 but if each level of spell had to have a different bonus like it currently uses ability scores for we would need a +9 just to function at the high end.
First, the dice numbers still have a place as easy random generation for initial character creation. Second, all of the cures displayed here look more complex than the disease.
This problem has been created by shifting mechanics, back in the day you would just roll a check on your stat (trying to get equal or under, possibly with a modifier). Removing stats would only make the game more alien for those that knew it first. Though if you’re into it, why not do it at your table, need we change the whole game?