Now that I am home and back in my right mind, I wanted to point fans of #dnd and
@downwithdnd
to the new
@misdirectedmark
forums, where you can chat with
@Thelight101
and me about the game and what we talk about on the show. Interesting topic at the moment: does #dnd as a game need ability scores from 3-18+, or can we move on to just use modifiers, if you cut nostalgia from the equation? https://t.co/cgbYcjKtwT— Shawn Merwin, floating on the River Styx (@shawnmerwin) September 12, 2019
I think brand new players should only see the modifiers. I see too many instances where you say something like "what's your dexterity" and they go +15 and… that's not their fault.
Is it still D&D without ANY numbers? "This is the clonky way it works" is part of the brand IMO.
— Six Hit Points (@sixhitpoints) September 12, 2019
If we rolled for ability scores, did the subtract 10, divide in half calculation to get the modifier, wrote the modifier down, and then tossed out the ability score entirely, I would be very happy.
The nice bell curve of 4d6 drop low is the only good part of ability scores IMO. It removes some granularity with respect to ability score increases, though. You can no longer get an ASI of 1.
— M.T. Black (@MTBlack2567) September 12, 2019
Personally, that doesn't bother me. I like that small level of granularity, but I would gladly sacrifice it for the increased simplicity.
— James Haeck 💍 Betrothed Beholder (@jamesjhaeck) September 12, 2019
There are some minor uses in fifth (primarily with multiclassing and with some feat stuff), but the only times in the non-optional rules it really comes up are when ability scores increase, and with how heavier armors affect you. Indeed. Most of the uses of the ability score could easily be switched over to reference the modifier instead.
— Shawn Merwin, floating on the River Styx (@shawnmerwin) September 12, 2019
Yeah, no need for #dnd ability scores. I got first-hand experience on this from my daughter last week as we worked on her first character. She was confused about why the ability scores were on the sheet AT ALL if the main things that mattered on the rolls were the modifiers. Your daughter is wise beyond her years! 🙂
— Shawn Merwin, floating on the River Styx (@shawnmerwin) September 12, 2019
An argument in favor of a return to rolling for ability scores than for proclaiming ability scores dead. I understand the need to rely on fixed or point buy for organized play, but doing so throws away so much opportunity for diversity in character concepts. You can still have diversity in character concepts without ability scores. You can randomize your abilities without the clunky translation of obsolete ability scores into the modifiers that the game actually uses. You could still do arrays or point buys as well.
— Shawn Merwin, floating on the River Styx (@shawnmerwin) September 12, 2019
The rolled stats versus point buy/array stats is a different discussion than the one I'm looking at.
— Shawn Merwin, floating on the River Styx (@shawnmerwin) September 12, 2019
I Suppose only the bonus is what matters but without the flavor of ability score it starts getting into the realm of DnD that I don’t care for I am not grokking this. Other than nostalgia, what's the difference between saying "My strength is 18" and "My strength is +4?" For players we are trying to teach the game, which is easier to understand?
— Shawn Merwin, floating on the River Styx (@shawnmerwin) September 12, 2019
It will be interesting to see what the new incarnation of D&D embraces. I think one thing is clear: the divide between those who roll play and those who role play becomes clearer with each campaign. It’s a fine line between evolution and compromise, and no one wins with compromise.
There are a few instances where ability scores are currently used. They could be adjusted to work with just modifiers, but would likely require using .5 modifiers if exact matches of what exists are intended. Requirements for MC, feats or other elements; ASI; and racial ability modifiers. Pf2e tackled this by making all stat modifiers be in sets of 2, yet even then didn’t forgo the ability score.
Overall scrapping ability scores can work, but you have to accept half score modifiers, or only do things equivalent to +/-2 score.
Well considering that most people are terrified of decimals I’d say no
Truthfully, it would certainly be easier when teaching new players. Perhaps have them roll a d4 for modifiers, certain actions could increase them over time (studying- intelligence, weights- strength, etc)
Maybe a d8, 5-8 being positive and 1-4 being negative
I think removing Ability Scores because they’re ‘dated’ is rather silly. Nothing in here seems to address the ‘half-steps’ that exist (odd-numbered ability scores), which is a perfectly fine argument for leaving them in.
Honestly this seems like a DM issue or a Knowledge issue, not a system issue.
I agree
This shouldn’t even be a discussion. The ability scores were and still are a very important part of the roleplaying portion. Anybody can spout a mod and roll a dice, why does your character have that mod? If you have a minus in charisma, why? Do you not speak correctly, or do you have bad scarring? These are the important aspects of your character, the things that give it life if you are going to play it as it was meant to be played. If not, play a computer game instead where roleplaying doesn’t matter.
It’s not particularly confusing to begin with. If your players struggle with numbers, simplify. If they don’t, then the ability scores as they are will likely work fine. The arguments for decimals or ways to work in/without the odd point scores seem more unnecessary and convoluted than useful. Ability scores as they are basically serve as little more than a visible method to determine your modifier. You’re just making something up otherwise, which is fine, but it’s just replacing one perveived arbitrary system for another.