hi this is Mike Shea from sly flourish
command twitter.com slash slight
flourish and this is the DMS deep dive
right here and that don’t split the
podcast network in this show I usually
try to find an expert in Dungeons &
Dragons we can talk to about one
particular topic I wasn’t really able to
find an expert this time but I did think
that it was time to bring Jeremy
Crawford on board haha Jeremy would you
please introduce yourself hi I am Jeremy
Crawford I’m the lead pulse designer of
Dungeons & Dragons the lead designer of
a book people might have heard of before
called The Player’s Handbook and I am
also Dean DS managing editor which means
I oversee the publication of every book
for Dungeons & Dragons
III kid of course I was I was talking to
my wife on a walk just before this show
and I said you know I’m pretty sure
maybe there are five people in the world
who have thought about Dungeons &
Dragons as as much as Jeremy but it
could even be less than that so I thank
you very much for coming onto the show
for us to be able to to pick your brain
on this matter is a great honor and of
course you’re bringing a lot of joy to
the world so thank you thank you very
much for all that you do
so today we’re gonna talk about monsters
in particular I love monsters and I
think that they are obviously they
account for one-third of the total you
know the core books so they are a topic
I think worth diving into I do mention
for for folks if you are on youtube if
you’re on Twitter or in twitch it’s too
late but there are two really good
videos worth watching one is an episode
of dragon talk that Jeremy Crawford did
with Greg Tito talking about encounter
building advice and I highly recommend
it kind of it really got me thinking
differently about kind of dungeons
dragons overall but certainly about
monsters designing encounter building
and the other one is Mike Murrells on
his show the happy fun hour recently
built a monster from scratch and so one
of the well I’m gonna hang on to this
question but that is a video for
much worth watching but I always like to
start the show with kind of getting
right into some useful tips that Dungeon
Master’s can can use right away
and I want to ask them to you what three
tips do you have for DMS to get the most
out of DD monsters so oh man and I
thought about this in advance and it was
really hard for me to boil it down to
just three so the first tip I would give
is remember that each monster is far
more than a sack of hip points a monster
is a character really and every monster
is not only a role-playing opportunity
for the DM but is also a story building
block often when I’m coming up with the
ideas for an upcoming D&D session often
what I will do is just sit down with the
monster manual or now follows guide to
monsters or Morton Kane and stoma foes
just flip through and see which monsters
sparked my imagination
sometimes a monster will have a little
story bit that can spawn not only an
entire adventure session but maybe an
entire mini campaign or an entire you
know Maxie campaign also I mentioned
every monster is a role-playing
opportunity so often when I bring
monsters to the table I’m looking for a
way to make the monsters funny or scary
or memorable in some way because of some
imperious thing they said or some
ridiculous thing they said I look for
ways to months for monsters to dispense
story information often in the midst of
combat often I like to tell people to
remember the story doesn’t have to stop
when initiative is rolled is you can
keep on going and whether you’re telling
that story through what the monsters are
saying and doing or you’re doing it
through the environment around them
because that’s the other thing going
along with this theme of they’re more
than a sack of hit points monsters often
imply an environment and so just your
monster choice can have this ripple
effect in your adventure design your
campaign design and your ball play so
that was just one tip the second tip I
would give is and and Mike you’ve heard
me
as many times before adjust numbers on
the fly because one of the things that
it’s really easy to forget as a DM is
your players don’t see what’s behind the
screen it’s one of the reasons why
playing with the DM screen is so
traditional for the game but even if you
don’t have a DM screen let’s say you’re
you’re keeping track of things on your
laptop or in an iPad or even a little
notebook that you can sort of pick up
and look at you’re always gonna have
some place where the players don’t see
what the hit points are what the AC is
how much damage the monster can deal
it’s on purpose that they can’t see that
because even if you have players who
have the monster manual memorized and
they know hobgoblins have this many hit
points and they deal this amount of
damage on average really what they have
in their mind is the Platonic ideal of
the hot Goblin I often like to think of
what we put in our monster books that’s
the Platonic ideal when you actually
meet a Hobgoblin you’re making your
meeting a real Hobgoblin you’re not
meeting necessarily the ideal that’s in
the monster manual you’re meeting a
Hobgoblin that might have way more hit
points than the average you’re meeting a
Hobgoblin that might deal way more or
way less damage than is normal for a
Hobgoblin the point is as a DM adjust on
the fly to make your combats memorable
and appropriate for the story moment you
might find you want a fight that’s a
cakewalk you might have you know one of
those moments where you kind of you want
the players blood to get rolling a
little bit maybe your session is sort of
flagging a little bit you’re like all
right I want some quick easy excitement
combats often a great way to do that but
you don’t want that combat to drag on
too long you just kind of want to remind
your players with there’s some danger in
the world these bug bear show up you
have a little quick skirmish and it’s
over you might decide but bears have
fewer than average hit points these bug
bears are kind of weak and not dealing
as much damage adjust that on the fly
often something I do too if I feel like
a combat is dragging on too long many
teams have seen the situation where
someone deals damage in this monster in
the
fight that’s going on a little too long
is left with two hip points I often will
make those two hip points disappear
and again your players don’t know those
two hip points are still there and
always remember you’re not cheating it’s
a dungeon master because when you look
in the stat block and you see the hit
point section up top
remember we give you a number of hit
points but right next to it in
parentheses we give you the monsters hit
dice and the monsters Constitution
contribution to their hit points that
number within that parentheses is an
important tool for you as a DM it
represents a range of possibility for
that monster from you know the lower end
to the average which is what we print
next to the parentheses and then all the
way up to the upper end and so if if you
want your monsters to get out of the way
faster well then just go you know down
go to end of the range if on the other
hand you want this fight to be scary and
you feel like this is a little too easy
maybe your maybe your player characters
are a little more powerful then the
system expects well then up those hit
point again you’re not cheating as a DM
when you do this the system is designed
for you to have this dial to turn up and
down you can do the same thing with
damage if you want your monsters to hit
like a wet noodle go below the average
damage and you’ll notice that in in our
stat blocks just like with hit points we
print a number right next to it in
parentheses there’s then a range of
possibility as a DM you can go anywhere
in that range of possibility if you want
the monsters to be doing minimum damage
all the time go for it if you want your
monsters to be dealing maximum damage
all the time go for it
although that’s gonna be terrifying you
might have some you might have some
deadly consequences to deal with but
again you are you are playing within the
parameters that the game is designed to
have we we we often provide you and
especially when it’s a DM facing element
to the game we provide you with a range
of possibility we default to the average
and the game is sort of fine-tuned for
the
average but USDM unit essence are not
only a storyteller but you also are sort
of the your the system master so you can
adjust the system on the fly in a way we
can’t do remotely from Wizards of the
coast you as a DM can see because of
this mix of character classes this mix
of magic items this number of player
characters things are going a little
weird relative to the system’s
expectations it’s why we give you these
dials so that you can adjust to get just
the right feeling you want all right so
that was just that was so that was tip
number two he’s not these are fantastic
just so so in summary again that was
adjust the numbers the previous one is
monsters are more than a bag of hit
points they’re also they’re pieces of
story okay so my final one this was a
simple one and this is not so much a tip
about monsters but really a tip DMS to
be kind to yourself and this tip I this
tip for me as my monsters have bad days
too because almost any DM if you’ve been
DMing long enough you have that
experience we run some encounter and you
thought I really thought that was gonna
be a really different experience than it
was and then after this session you go
back and you look at the stat block and
you’re like oh my god this creature had
immunity to cold damage and they killed
it with rheya frost you know you’d like
you have that kind of ono moment
monsters have bad days too because
player characters also will have bad
days players will sometimes forget
abilities their character have I often
just I just chalk it up to just like in
real life we make we often make weird
mistakes and our lives will forget
strengths we have our resources we have
the same is true for player characters
the same is true for monsters don’t
torture yourself as a DM if you forgot
this thing I often love to use that as
an opportunity for a second chance
like oh right you know there there was
you know Bob the Minotaur who was just a
hot mess because I as DM forgot half his
abilities so
next time Bob’s sister Charlotte is
gonna show up and she is gonna clean
their clocks because I’m gonna remember
all of Charlotte’s abilities and I might
even up her potency a bit to make up for
how how pathetic boggle us so again keep
in mind that everything you’re doing a
storytelling even your use of the system
and I I often like to say use it
adversity as an opportunity to tell an
even better story even if that’s
adversity you’ve brought on yourself as
a DM because you forgot something or
maybe the plan that you had just perhaps
wasn’t as good as it could have been for
this particular group of characters this
particular story you’re telling one of
the beauties of the campaign is every
session you have a chance to do
something different and better that’s
that’s one of the things I love about
df/de
is you as a storyteller get to evolve
over the course of your own campaign you
as a storyteller get to use the monsters
you’re using better and better
the locations you’re using better and
better it’s this endless learning
opportunity this I often think D&D has
this optimism built into its very core
it’s about things can always get better
because you think about it even the
narrative for player characters is they
can always get better they’re gonna
level up they’re gonna get more powerful
they’re gonna get smarter they might
even get more charismatic
the game is all about improvement and so
not just on the game side but even in us
those who are DMing it and who are
playing it all right so those are my
three tips those are excellent and some
one quick quick follow-up question on
the on the numbers so you and I talked
about hit points being flexible within
the the range and I asked you on Twitter
about damage in particular because
that’s something that I’ve been doing
I’ve been kind of just look you know I’m
like I’ve already been switching up the
average too high on monsters yeah can I
do that with damage too and it does
build these really scary monsters and
sometimes again based on the pacing in
the battle I might lower the hit points
but increase the damage because I want
them to hit like freight trains but die
quick but I guess I’m also in my mind
I’m kind of saying like okay well I know
I can do anything like I could just
double their hit points
their damage which is outside of scope
so I like to think like well what’s
inside scope so as is the you know is is
is maxing damage in particular like
maxing hit points is one thing because
it’s like well they rolled really well
once you know but damage they’re rolling
all the time and we’re pushing that you
know we’re pushing the mean pretty high
yeah if they’re hitting you know max
every time do you feel like that goes
outside of the balance that you had when
you were designing the monsters or is
that you know is that still within the
bounds so so it’s within bounds but oh
boy are you up against the edge and
again I would say only do it if you were
monitoring round by round the fact that
that’s having on the group but but it
again is it is literally within the
range of possibility that we have put in
the stat block and so again you’re not
cheating you’re not gonna break the game
but again you might you might wipe out
some of the characters inadvertently so
I think it’s great that when you do it
you are keeping an eye on you said that
you had a list of things it was hard to
get down to three did you have a fourth
that you’re absolutely dying to bring up
so so the fourth actually I cheated and
folded it into number one and that was
using monsters as the seeds for
adventure design because I I both as a
DM and as a designer love monsters more
than almost anything else in D&D
I mean I think part of that goes back to
the fact that you know I started D&D
with first edition and the first of the
three books was the monster manual and
to me there is still something magical
about paging through a bestiary and and
in my mind populating a story and a
world with all of these crazy creatures
and then also trying to come up with
ways that they might coexist and
pondering how bizarre the worlds are
that have all these creatures in them I
mean you know creatures that can
disintegrate people with rays and
control other people’s minds I mean
the world’s a really bizarre place you
think of you think of the the Ecology’s
that produced these strange creatures
now of course the story we always have
for D&D that we can fall back on is well
various divine beings did it or as you
know we often like to shorten that to
just a wizard did it yeah magic yes
magic magic causes all sorts of bizarre
things to happen and our monster books
are filled with the bizarre yeah so when
Mike Merle’s was on the show one of the
things I had to admit and get absolution
for was the fact that I had not actually
fully read the Monster Manual at that
point oh but I am I am happy to say now
that I have read the Monster Manual
Volos guide and Morden Kanaan’s cover to
cover and and and yeah that is something
that in the last year you know I’ve been
playing a D&D long time a lot of people
have been playing D&D a long time and
what I’m finding is that really doesn’t
matter too much we’re learning so much
as we go that and one of the things that
I’ve really picked up in the last year
is just how much value there is outside
of the stat block for all of the stuff
that’s inside these books and and yeah
so that that one in particular resonated
a lot with me that if you’re having
trouble finding you know finding an idea
for an adventure you pick a monster read
it’s read it’s text and you could build
sometimes campaigns you know I had a
entire one to 20 Knoll campaign in my
head after reading the dull section and
so sorry I did that just just to give a
quick example recently at stream of many
eyes I was backstage DMing for the DMS
and the adventure that I wrote really
was just an example of me paging through
the Monster Manual reminding myself some
of the stories that we tell in that book
and I came across the kueh Toa and I’ve
always loved the story we give about
total gods making their own gods of it
yet and and I knew I wanted this
whatever story I was gonna tell to be in
the city of Waterdeep and I wanted it to
tie in with Dragon heist and I knew in
dragon house there was near the docks I
don’t want to give too much away near
the docks there is this parade and and
you know
circus animals and whatnot and floats in
this parade and I thought what if there
was a float in the parade that a group
of kueh TOA had decided was a god and so
that was my whole adventure that in this
parade in dragon heist
there was this statue of a mer boy not a
mermaid but a mer boyd that this group
of of kueh TOA had decided was called
mer boy destroyer of worlds it was
starting to be turned into a god and
that was that was the whole adventure is
having to deal with this murder boy he
stabs you turning into a god and that
just came from me rereading the Kuato
entry in the Monster Manual that is
awesome sorry I have to bring it up it’s
not related to monsters and and not to
water deep at all what what is that
hanging over your your your left
shoulder there is that said it was that
just was that just up there is that just
to break up the white space so familiar
for some reason yeah so great great Tito
knowing I was going to be on this show
he came in and put the map of Waterdeep
behind me and this is the map that
appears as a poster map in dragon heist
awesome now everybody can can you know
take a snapshot zoom way in you know and
get all the spoilers about water deep
and this this map is crazy detailed you
almost in some cases need a magnifying
glass to see some of the stamps Chris
Perkins put the the tags on and after I
was reviewing the map I said Chris you
went a little bonkers so so I mentioned
before that Mike Murrells had on a happy
fun hour had sat down and actually built
a monster from scratch he built the
blazing skeleton how much did his
process their mirror the process that
you guys typically go through to build
monsters for you know published products
like morning cannons so the monster
process varies depending on the book
that we’re working on sometimes for
instance if we’re working on an
adventure
we’ll start with often an npc or a
villain group and we then need to build
monsters
match that sort of story that we have
often because we’re doing adventure
design we also need to hit a particular
challenge rating targets like we know
hey this part of the adventure where
these these creatures show up is going
to be four characters around fifth level
and so then that will influence sort of
the CR decisions we make and some of the
other decisions having to do with the
creature
other times we will just have sort of a
vague general idea especially if we’re
doing a new monster for a book like
Volos guide or Morgan Kane stoma foes
and we might go through several cycles
of thinking first of concept then
writing up a few abilities going to our
CR calculator to see what actual CR we
just generated and then then we’ll do a
reality check and say okay we we don’t
want these to be more powerful than
ogres but oh my god they’re way more
powerful so now we need to adjust
because we not only look at what is the
CR but then we also do a reality check
on just in terms of the D&D multiverse
where’s this creature coming in in terms
of our world building because there is a
there’s an element to monster design
that is also about the broader world
because we’re saying something about the
D&D multiverse when something shows up
and it’s CR 23 you know we were saying
okay this is one of the most powerful
things in the multiverse does that stack
up with other things we’ve said like if
we say alright these this particular
group of dragons are the most powerful
things in the multiverse and now we just
came out with 50 monsters that are all
more powerful than that you know so we
we actually care about that kind of
thing when we’re doing our monster
design so it it tends to be an iterative
process like so much that we do like we
might draft a monster like you saw Mike
do and the happy fun hour we might then
play test it a few times make some
adjustments based on the play test go
back to the CR calculator a few times
adjust numbers based on the use of that
calculator until you know after
we cycle through several times we end up
with the version that you see on the
books the CR calculator calculator I’m I
mentioned I believe Mike talked about a
little bit in the happy fun hour that is
the calculator we have used for every
monster book and adventure of fifth
edition and I’ve mentioned before in
public that the Dungeon Master’s guides
monster building guidelines are an
extrapolation of that calculator so it’s
really sometimes people using the
guidelines in the Dungeon Master’s guide
will be puzzled by what’s in one of our
books but it’s important to remember we
don’t build monsters in official books
using the guidelines in the Dungeon
Master’s guide we build them using our
calculator that those guidelines are
based on if that makes sense
yeah are there are there examples of
where they’re where they’re off from one
another so the main difference between
them is we have way more sort of minor
control and the ability to make small
adjustments in the calculator then you
can do easily by hand using the
guidelines in the Dungeon Master’s guide
because our calculator just everything
on the fly so I can sometimes let’s say
I want to nudge something from CR 3 P 2
CR 4 I can go into our calculator and
just add a couple of hit points at a
time until all right we just you know
nudged over into the next CR or I can
you know go in the other direction also
because the guidelines in the dmg tell
you that CR is really all about
averaging both offensive abilities and
defensive abilities well our calculator
does all of that for us on the fly we
and we can put in the monsters hit
points it’s AC it’s saving throw bonuses
the average damage it does each round we
can also we also have a whole Bank of
toggles where we can put in a right it
applies this condition and it can do it
this many times per round all of those
things affect
see our and we can then often use the
calculator to help us make decisions
about what elements are going to stay or
go insider monsters sometimes actually
almost all the time
when I’m doing my final review of
monsters and when I’m deciding what what
is the final form this monster is going
to have in a book almost always I want
to cut something because usually
monsters and their earlier versions are
smidge more complicated than they should
be and so I will often look for
something in the stat block that is sort
of the least challenge rating relevant
also the least story relevant and booted
out of the stat block and the calculator
will help me determine what sort of the
least relevant thing here in the stat
line sometimes I will leave non relevant
things in terms of CR in a stat block
for story reasons because story trumps
everything else and so that’s why
sometimes monsters will have bizarre
things in them and and ultimately those
things have zero effect on the monster
CR but they’re there because the story
demands that they’re there or it can
also it’s funny it could be the art
demands that they’re there because
that’s also another element that goes
into monster design especially final
monster design is we always do a review
at the end to make sure that the stat
blocks are actually matching the art and
we’ve made some last-minute design
decisions when we realize oh this
painting has things in it that are not
reflected in the snap-loc at all and
then we’ll redesign the monster so that
it does that what now reflects what’s in
the painting is this why the winter
Aladdin has such a sad bow he brought it
up so so so that that bow is
spectacularly pathetic no there’s I’m
not I’m not gonna try to pretend it’s
not sad it is a sad sad long bow attack
and quite honestly it could be better
like if I were if I were adjusting it
today I’d say we can make that thing go
up a bit because the bow right now is
not relevant to the elaborate and it’s
it’s really just there a because there’s
a bow in the arch that was the clue like
I never thought about I had to go look
I’ve let’s looking up the NDB on while
you mentioned it yeah yeah and it’s a
saddle a turn holding a bow yeah and so
it’s also essentially there as a
stand-in for like a garbage can trip
because you know often so much better
I know it’s it’s one of those things I
look at it it’s like yeah we really it
really could have been better but
because it’s not actually doing any harm
– it’s not it’s not technically an error
but yes file that under like yeah yes
sorry but again that that that winter a
labrum is designed as a a beguiling
spellcaster and in in many ways that
winter Lantern is going to be very sad
if they’re resorting to using that bow
yeah I mean they really fall into that
almost 4e style controller role right
like yes they’re their beard they’re
like a pillar of sadness and they just
stand there and everyone’s you know
everyone said and that controls the you
know well they’re buddies this the the
summer ladders are killing everyone yeah
yeah in the winter the winter ladrón are
a great example and so it’s why I
beforehand I encourage you to bring them
up because I they’re a great example of
a monster that in the very design is not
just a sack of hitpoints the winter a
ladrón is more than a typical monster a
walking story because if you look at if
you look at that aura they have because
if you if you skim past that word you’re
gonna actually miss what makes the
winter a ladder terrifying and why there
are the CR that they are
they have this massive aura where they
just charmed people all around them and
it is a charm that is harder to break
than most charms in the game this
disadvantage on all saves her head yeah
and most charms in the game are shut off
simply when someone like takes damage
from the charmer even that doesn’t do it
automatically with the winter all add
room and so the winter of ladrón can
shut down a potentially huge number of
people you can imagine a winter of
ladrón walking into you know the water
deepest behind me walking in and wander
deep and just like no we’re going to
attack me yeah no way you don’t want him
showing up at your bar no customers
gonna be sad that’s great so a question
for you and particularly kind of getting
back to the well it’s a one quick side
question about the the magic Wizards
spreadsheet and the the rules that we
have in the dmg does one tend to lean
higher in power than the other or is it
really just sort of shaving off the
rough edges and some of the details so
the dmg guidelines because because of
dealing with averages the way it does
actually tends I have found to lead to
monsters with more hit points in dealing
more damage than the spreadsheet results
in because the spreadsheet allows us to
do very small adjustments that will just
push something over slightly over the
line whereas using the guidelines in the
dmg things move from one CR to another
with sort of larger chunks of number if
that makes sense right you know rather
than rather than that adjustment of
three pushing it over the line the dmg
guidelines might say well this
adjustment of 10 pushes it over the line
that can have a pretty large effect and
it’s sort of large accumulative effect
when you’re doing a monster right yeah
and again those guidelines we created
them for DMS to homebrew thing
for their own use those guidelines are
not there to create official content
that that’s that’s what our spreadsheet
is for and that and it’s a spreadsheet
that we share with freelancers who work
for us
creating official content yeah so a
fellow Paul who runs the website blog of
holding so I was in my two-week Morden
kanan super deep dive where you know
like I said I read it cover to cover and
pick things out and I kind of
highlighted and then I’d have little
spasms on Twitter about particular
monsters like poor who diggin and the
winter ladrón and Paul seems to be OCD
like I am and I think he actually hand
wrote all the stats into an Excel
spreadsheet for both the monster manual
and Morden Kanaan’s and then we did all
kinds of like regression analysis and
all sorts of things and he was comparing
it specifically to like the dmg stats
and I remember many times I kind of
bring something up and then people would
sort of kind of explain well you know
you might be missing this one line
that’s in the dmg that might have
lowered it slightly so most of them
seemed pretty my my end result after a
lot of time was they’re pretty close
like hey both books the power of them
are pretty close to one another and
they’re close enough to the dmg that
given the wild swings that we have
rolling on a 20-sided die they’re not
really gonna they’re not really gonna
matter that much yeah yeah the
differences aren’t gonna matter that
much yeah we find the dmg guidelines are
close enough to to what our spreadsheet
generates and again it’s the the the
spreadsheet we’re using the math it’s
exactly the same as it was for the
monster manual as it is for every book
we’re doing today and I also learned
another valuable lesson that if both Dan
Dillon and James haic tell you you’re
wrong you’re probably wrong now if Dan
Dillon and James Hayek both think you’re
right it might also mean you’re right
now something something that might have
led to your initial impression that that
something was different about the Morton
Kamen’s monsters you’re you were onto
something and and I know when you sent
me questions in advance you wanted
like something has changed you know with
monsters we did in the monster manual
and monster yeah now I’m about to ask
that next well let me let me let me just
to frame the question a little bit so my
big question was inside wat si have you
guys yeah have you guys kind of either
changed your philosophies or tweaked
your philosophies towards monster design
from the Monster Manual which you
probably wrote five years ago at this
point right to you know morning Canaan’s
and the monsters we’re seeing today you
know what what what what philosophical
changes have you have you had since then
if any so so our core philosophy has not
changed one whit and our core philosophy
is story first we and if if people hear
me say that and they might wonder well
why is Jeremy saying that here’s what I
mean by that when we come to a monster
design we do not come to it thinking
what are the trickiest game mechanics we
could design instead it’s what is this
monster story and what mechanics can be
designed to express that summary in a
way that’s not too onerous for the DM to
run at the table I say that because
sometimes we have come up with some
really interesting game mechanics that
once we try them out way too complicated
for the DM because something I always
remind designers anytime I do a design
training session on designing for
monsters is I always remind them a DM
might be running three five six
different types of monsters even in the
same encounter don’t kill the DM by
having a bunch of over complicated
abilities in all of these monsters now
we give it out to legendary monsters
they’re supposed to be crazy they’re
supposed to often be complex so that’s
why you’ll often see legendary creatures
having a higher complexity level than
you see in another monster and that’s by
design and has and that’s again been
true all the way back to all the way
back to the Monster Manual now something
has changed a little bit over time and
that is we are more and more willing
since we have the Monster Manual as a
foundation to play around with our
design and let a monsters
are residing things other than its hip
points in its damage so the monsters in
the monster manual were designed to be
as straightforward as possible and
because of that when you analyze the
monsters in that book most of their CR
is coming from their hit points their AC
their damage and also their accuracy in
later books especially as we’ve refined
the interface for our CR spreadsheet and
really that sounds fancy all it really
did is we took all of those CR
adjustments that are in that massive
table in the Dungeon Master’s guide and
those are all just toggles for us you
know so like we can click legendary
resistance and that adjustment that the
Dungeon Master’s guide mentions our
spreadsheet does that for us
automatically we have basically started
to play more with the application of
certain conditions certain resistances
you know larger quantities of saving
throw saving throw bonuses we started to
play with those more as a way to adjust
CR so that you can end up with monsters
that give a variety of different play
experiences you end up with monsters
like the winter Elad room who is
certainly on a damage powerhouse but is
a battlefield control powerhouse because
of how they’re shutting people down and
one of the one of the things that we do
in our monster design is convert certain
conditions into what I refer to as
virtual damage now that is something the
Dungeon Master’s guide doesn’t go into
very much but once you realize we’re
doing that a lot of our design starts to
make more sense here’s a great example
of it if there is an effect that
paralyzes a creature and or otherwise
deprives a person of their term we often
just for shorthand we refer to it as
term denial we how we account for that
as virtual damage when we’re figuring
out a monster CR
is we look for the lowest level spell in
the game that applies that condition and
we caught we basically caused that
effect to deal an amount of virtual
damage equal to the average damage for a
spell of that level for example this
turn denial thing the standard way of
doing that in the spell list is hold
person and so we then will look at at
that level what is a sort of icon and
aniconic amount of damage output
scorching array and so if you see a
monster that the only thing it’s doing
is is it paralyzes somebody when we do
our CR calculation that paralysis is
given the same damage value as is as if
that creature were casting scorching ray
and so we do a lot more of that these
days where we are where the monsters are
dealing what we were again referred to
as virtual damage and that virtual
damage or other various defensive
capabilities are having a larger
contribution to the monster CR than just
straightforward damage or
straightforward defense that’s great
that’s great so I’m gonna I want to jump
to boss monsters for a minute because I
know that so I wondered I wondered for a
while if this was you know just
something I had trouble with so I kind
of reached out and ran a very
unscientific Twitter poll on how people
felt about hi C are monsters in
particular and whether people felt that
they were either too easy or just right
or too hard and it came back with about
three out of four of the respondents
saying that they were too easy mmm which
has kind of been my experience as well
and then I kind of thought about you
know Matt Mercer when he ran vecna and
you know people of course dove deep into
those stats just reverse engineering it
from the show and they had like 1,100
hit points and three ninth level spells
so what can DMS do for per diems who are
running high level D indie games and
they and they hit these high level
bosses beyond the things that you’ve
talked about with being able to scale
things up with the numbers right we can
we can max damage and we can max hit
points what are some other ways for us
to run a
boss monsters at the real high-end like
demon Prince’s devil Lords you know
ancient dragons and these and these
really you know a Sarah rack right I
don’t want to sarah hack to be beaten it
around right right so this actually goes
back to my my tip earlier in the show
that monsters are more than bags of hit
points and here’s what I mean by that a
boss is never meant in our design to be
encountered in a white room a boss
should be encountered especially if
they’re a Demon Lord or some kind of
Archmage genius they’re almost always
going to be the ones who choose the
battlefield and they’re going to choose
a battlefield that is advantageous to
them you know so if if they’re being met
in their throne room you most likely
have gone through many ranks of guards
you’ve faced traps so you’re often going
to arrive tuckered out so here’s where
encounter sequencing is very important
if a DM makes it so that hey you’re
fighting the boss at the start of the
day and you’re totally fresh yeah that
that encounter is gonna go very
differently than if you finally stagger
into the throne room after fighting
through you know eight waves of guards
and now you face the boss so encounter
sequence easing it is important the
setting of the battle is important
usually the boss is going to want to be
in there later also most bosses are not
going to appear alone they’re even even
if let’s say you decide the the
adventurers are gonna start the day and
they’re gonna go right into the boss
battle well that boss is most likely
going to have a lot of help in that
fight and so a more specific way to get
out when I’m talking about is when you
look at the encounter building
guidelines in the Dungeon Master’s guide
where we talk about sort of easy medium
or hard encounters both hard in the hard
direction because this is the boss you
know did this this should not be easy
and don’t build it assuming that the
players are going to succeed on their
first go they might have
flea like it’s okay if you even make it
what what our encounter building
guidelines would consider to be deadly
and it’s not a bad thing story wise if
the group realizes they have to flee and
try this again here’s the other thing
many boss creatures have ways to escape
my favorite example of this is the
vampire the vampires in fifth edition
this is by design many of them if if
they just stuck around and fought again
like a big sack of hit points there are
many ways where you could take them out
and they might not feel like a very
great threat here’s the thing I’ve been
using vampires now for the entire life
of fifth edition and I have yet to have
a group be able to defeat one yeah
seriously and I and I and I’ve run the
vampires actually without even any of
the adjustments I’ve talked about I’ve
run the vampires using the stat blocks
as written in the Monster Manual and I
have yet to have a group be able to
defeat one the reason for that for that
is that I play them like the geniuses
that most of them are first off they’re
not gonna stick around in a fight if
they’re losing it that’s and that’s true
normally for vampires but that’s true
for all bosses unless a boss is
defending something that is the most
precious thing to them in existence
they’re not gonna stick around most
bosses when they get to about midway in
their hit points they’re gonna get out
of there and that’s what I almost always
have my vampires do I have night hags do
that it’s been very difficult for my
players to defeat any of the night hacks
I’ve thrown out there because actually
nine eggs are a great example of DMS
sometimes missing something in the staff
walk they miss wait night hex can plain
shift and so usually if you know my hags
are on the ropes poof they’re out of
there or even just at the D&D in a
castle event that I was at recently my
players were fighting a witch who was a
powerful spell caster they had actually
some amazing rounds of
and she was on the ropes but in her stat
block she had greater invisibility
prepared and she also had misty step
prepared so when her hip points got low
enough she’s a genius and wants to
survive I had her cast crater and
visibility and teleported out and then
she booked it out of there and she
escaped they were never able to defeat
her and that’s that’s how I play my
villains unless again they’re truly
backed into some kind of existential
corner like if they leave this room
they’re gonna die or you know their
their master plan will fall apart and
everything they’ve you know lived for is
about to be undone unless those things
are true
my bosses do not stick around and and so
that it is often a mighty accomplishment
in my games when my when the player
characters in the in the campaign
managed to finally take out one of my
bosses because because that boss has got
to have really be on the ropes for them
to finally be defeated the other thing
is I have my bosses learn that’s the
beauty of it being a human run game
rather than run by a computer my boss
does pay attention over the course of a
campaign especially if people have been
encountering the minions of a particular
mastermind or other villain those
minions are reporting back they’re
reporting on the capabilities they saw
you know if if if the minions managed to
escape and they saw all right this group
has these spellcasters in it has this
fighter has this road the villain and
the villains minions they’re gonna start
adjusting they’re gonna start coming
back with ways to foil the player
characters they’re gonna learn and I
really always loved doing that of having
the bosses get smarter have their
minions get smarter and also sometimes
you can use the player characters tricks
against them one of the bits of advice I
love to give is if you’re if your player
characters come up with some amazing
alpha-strike combo you know on round
round one
you know they managed to pull off you
knows the certain class features
combined with certain spells and just an
insane amount of damage is done if any
NPCs villainous or otherwise we’re
observing that there’s a good chance
someone in this setting is now gonna do
that same thing back and and so I often
love doing that to again show it’s a
living environment or Orcas is divine
smite destroy them yeah yeah excellent
so we have Rudy Basso our guardian angel
is on our channel as well and Rudy has
been watching the twitch chat and we’ve
had some questions on Twitter so we
wanted to take a few a few questions
from the audience
Rudy what do you have hello yes thank
you to everyone who’s asked questions
there have been some great ones I’m
gonna choose some of my favorites
hopefully I get to all of them we’ll see
first off Danny Wilkinson on Twitter how
many times did you put a monster on the
table against players before it makes it
into a book
what is the testing process for a
monster after you think you have it
stats in C are correct so that is
different for every product if if it’s
an adventure
the monsters will often get tested many
many times over the months because we
have many nd8 play testers who are poor
playing with those monsters
we often have internal groups who are
playing through drafts of the adventure
so those monsters often go through many
many cycles of play when it comes to a
big monster book like more than canons
tone the foes oh then it’s all over the
place some of those monsters might see
well again they’re going to our nd8 play
testers some of those play testers to be
honest don’t actually play test
everything I know that sometimes they
just read read it and give us our
feedback which is valuable
and then some of those groups do indeed
play through encounters using all of
these monsters we sometimes with the
monster particularly it’s a monster that
we expect to be used a lot we might do
multiple encounters in house with that
monster we might have other monsters
that
might only see one use before it goes
into print and that that’s partly
because that monster might be so simple
and huge so closely to our CR
expectations there’s really not a whole
lot we need to test because at this
point with our our CR calculator and the
other monsters we’ve designed if a new
Monster is very close to say a monster
in the Monster Manual it might not need
to go through much testing if any I mean
we do it have occasional monsters where
we don’t need to play test them before
we put them into a book because it’s
like this is this is essentially a
different combination of the abilities
we’ve done before we know how these
abilities work we know what it feels
like and play and we know what the CR
implications are excellent Rudy what
else you got
sure Mason Williams on Twitter and he’s
also in twitch chat hello Mason when
designing monsters that are likely to be
bosses but don’t have legendary traits
what consideration is taken for action
economy is the assumption that there
will always be multiple creatures in a
fight for example the giant Lords and
storm Kings Thunder so if the creature
is not a legendary creature the default
assumption is that it will show up with
friends it we really only design
legendary creatures as the ones who
basically you might meet them up by
themselves
you can certainly treat a very high CR
creature as a solo creature especially
if it’s high CR relative to your group
and XANA thar’s guide to everything in
one of its tables gives this sort of
like solo monster table and gives you a
CR addition for if you’re gonna have a
monster show up by itself and usually
that CR is quite a bit higher than the
player-character CR because if you get
this if the CR is too close to the
players level and just one monster shows
up usually that monsters gonna get
squashed because just as the default
expectation is that D&D adventurers are
showing up as a group the same is true
for monsters that they’re showing up as
groups again unless
it’s a legendary creature in which case
that creature is kind of a a walking
Voltron group that’s why it has you know
legendary actions and all of that
excellent
Rudy well so you got what are some of
your and Mike you can add to this – what
are some of your favorite our most
terrifying monster traits or abilities
like pack tactics or lifedrain
things like that I think this is partly
because for the last couple of years
I’ve been running a gothic horror
campaign I have found that I’ve been
able to terrify my players with all
sorts of things mostly in kind of the
role role-playing sphere but what’s
interesting is I have found few
abilities terrify people more than hit
point drain or being mind-controlled
especially long term might control not
the kind of charm that just last word a
few rounds this by the way is another
reason I love vampires because they can
charm you and you can be you know
they’re they’re enforced buddy for quite
some time that can sow a lot of
wonderful paranoia and especially
especially a horror campaign but even in
a non horror campaign hit point drain
you know it’s something we’ve had since
the Monster Manual it is a it’s an oldie
but goodie it a few things terrified
people more than seeing their maximum
hit points going down yeah I joked that
to me the most dangerous monster in
Morden Canaan’s is the young crew thick
because it is CR 1/8 but it has packed
tactics oh you know and to me like these
burrowing tiny little burrowing monsters
that that you know you’re gonna throw a
ton of them you know yeah I was like I
kind of wish every monster was as tough
as these guys would be for a level 1 I
love lo CR creatures like those crew
thick’s that have that little element of
terror because that’s something we do in
some of our low CR monsters to make them
usable for a long time because as soon
as you put a pack
tactics in some I monster that lo CR
what that means is you can that that
monster is gonna take longer to go out
of style than a maybe a low CR monster
that lacks a trait like pack tactics
Rudy what are the questions again so
that last one was some short men in as
well sorry I didn’t mention that we have
one from twitch Johnny Utah 99 what are
some of your favorite combat systems in
non D&D RPGs
so specifically tabletop RPGs or video
yeah table topia top so I have played
more RPGs than I can count
both both of the tabletop variety and
the video game variety I just love RPGs
so in recent years so I think one of the
combat systems I was most fascinated by
in the last two years was the abstract
combat system in the Japanese tabletop
RPG Ryo Tama it’s this this RPG that’s
actually mostly about peaceful journeys
but it has this abstracted combat system
that deals with sort of different zones
rather than concrete measurements and I
think they did a really good job of it
and and really fascinated me and I’m
often fascinated by games that do sort
of more abstracted combat system systems
compared to the very concrete measured
out combat system of D&D and part of the
reason for my interest in those systems
is I am so you know up to up to my
forehead in Dungeons and Dragons every
day of the week and it’s this game I
love usually when I go to other games I
want them to not be like dandy because
essentially if they feel too much like
D&D I’m just like well I have D&D you
know it you know it’s it if I want more
D&D I’ll play more D&D so I often I’m
most excited often by these games that
just do something wildly different
whether it’s with their combat system or
with their up
with their other rule systems another
RPG recently and I really loved reading
was blades in the dark because again of
some really interesting abstract ways of
dealing not only with combat but even
with some of the exploration elements of
the game next thanks Rudy we got time
for one more question one you Mike for
that last question what else do you like
oh man
I’ve really enjoyed Newman era I don’t
get to play it nearly as much as I would
like it’s it’s I like to say that in a
parallel universe I’m playing a lot of
numenera and I like that one just
because of how simple the design is for
challenges that everything has a level
and you know you immediately know like
what the dire rolling is going to be you
can make a monster just in your head and
I can make any NPC and any challenge in
your head and that that yeah it’s the
one that immediately comes to mind but
it’s also because I just got all the
books like today so it’s sort of the
most recent the most recent one I don’t
know well I mean so I’m a huge fan a bit
of abstract combat when it comes to
distances and I think 13th age really
kind of knocked out of the park with
that that you know that whole idea of
you know how many guys land in a
fireball well roll you know rolled to d3
and if you’re willing to hit your
friend’s roll to d6 and that’s how many
guys who can get a fireball I kind of
like that that you know abstract
mechanic that sort of gets away from you
know the nitpicky moving miniatures
around to angle a lightning bolt exactly
right and and I’ve custom-built D&D
monsters that way where I’m like I’m
gonna have a literal lightening bolts
but instead of he has the line people
out of bait in a beam he could hit any
two targets he can see and do the
equipment of lightning bolt damage and
that way nobody can argue about whether
or not they were within the line of
effect or not so yeah we could we could
do a whole other show that just on
theater of the mind combine well we we
should schedule back oh man if you’re
serious I’ll schedule it it’s the kind
of thing that I get enough questions
about it over the years it would be fun
to do a deep dive into it
because I could then share some of my
strategies as a person who now mostly
does theater of the mind yeah I find it
very interesting you and I know Mike
Merle’s runs a lot of theater they might
as well it’s very interesting to me that
so many people that work at why and
we’ve seen Chris Perkins obviously runs
a lot of theater the mind we we watch it
all the time yeah so be very interesting
to hear how how the guys that Vizards do
it in fact in fact none none of the core
design team regularly uses miniatures
anymore that’s incredible yeah I thought
Chris Perkins had this enormous like 50
gallon drum of miniatures that he’d
wheel around in a cart so he this might
amaze you he within the past year got
rid of almost all those money my god
yeah Wow he is is he independently
wealthy now I so I still have all of my
miniatures because I still like to break
them out for certain set-piece
encounters right and again we but we can
talk about that in in a different
session awesome Rudy one last question
sure from Q’s fan 2:00 to 4:00 on twitch
at how do you stand up fight Chen oh do
you mean fight Chen who is the the magic
item district the trading vendor only
it’s totally riddled with magic items
but no proficiencies right right
oh so it’s funny when I do NPCs
especially NPCs who are high in story
importance and low in combat importance
I almost never stack them up in my own
in my home game I will often just roll
dice and make up what happens I will
often assume they just they have
averages and everything and I just roll
with it but no no I’m pondering how I
stand him up this will be a to be
continued honestly the by serious answer
is that unless especially as a DM unless
I’m
signing something that somebody else is
going to use I will rarely bother fully
standing something out I will I will
either use a step block that already
exists and reskin it or I will come up
with just the stats that are actually
important for the NPC because I don’t
assume that most of my NPCs are gonna
get slaughtered and then if if they do
enter into unexpected battle there’s
almost always some stat block that
already exists that I can use because
the secret is this is one of the many
advantages of being one of the lead
designers of the game as I can fill
books with things I want from my home so
so one of one of the reasons we keep
having these NPC appendices in our
monster books going all the way back to
the Monster Manual is because I wanted
them from my campaign because I get so
tired of having to come up with guard
stat blocks Noble stat blocks you know
random cultists tap blocks so these
things are really here and Chris Perkins
he wanted them as well so Chris and I
when working on the Monster Manual we’re
just gonna put all these stat blocks in
because we want them when we’re DMing
and we figured well if we want them
probably all the other teams want them
too they are that section in my monster
manual is beat to hell yeah because they
are by far the monsters I use the most I
don’t know how many times I’ve thrown
cultists out there oh you know me I used
the NPC stat blocks more than any other
monsters in D&D yeah yeah definitely on
the mage man I use that mage that block
all that’s been an absolute wonderful
time I always I always love talking to
you when I get the opportunity and I
really thank you for taking the time to
sit with us today and dig deep into this
love every time you’re on you know
dragon talk I have to stop whatever I’m
doing and and you know sit and list I’ll
pull the car over to the side of the
road and be 45 minutes late for work so
I can listen to what you have to say
yeah it’s it’s just fantastic to have
you on and thank you for all the hard
work that you’re doing we’re all
benefiting from it every day well those
of us who think about it in play every
day but then it’s wonderful
so I really really thank you for coming
on the show oh I have one special
announcement unrelated to Jeremy
so Gen Con is next week Jeremy are you
are you going are you gonna be able to
make it to Gen Con so this is actually
the first gen con’ I am missing in
tenure Wow
and we’ve missed it we’ve missed it the
last couple of times just hotel problems
but anyway there will be so this show is
on the don’t split the podcast network
with Rudy and James Souter caso and many
others and we are going to be having a
panel on Saturday 5:00 to 6:00 p.m. in
the Lucas Oil meeting room number four
and I will be there and a bunch of other
bunch of other folks from the don’t
split the podcast network will be there
so please come on by and say hello and
we’ll talk about all this stuff
Rudy might miss anything else thank
Thank You Rudy very much for as always
for a thank you yeah and thanks to the
twitch audience for coming along and and
for everybody who asked questions and
sorry we couldn’t get to them all we’d
have you here for another two hours if
we did but thank you again and everybody
have a great night all right bye
everyone
If you missed it, you can see the Twitch replay of @JeremyECrawford and I talking about #dnd monsters! He shared some wonderful experiences and ideas. Don't miss it. https://t.co/u0515dNjDq— SlyFlourish (@SlyFlourish) July 25, 2018