An initiative variant: The Greyhawk Initiative

Unearthed Arcana introduces Greyhawk Initiative, an alternative initiative system that adds complexity to combat https://t.co/sYu3072NNE pic.twitter.com/lhTgXeSfnv

— Dungeons & Dragons (@Wizards_DnD) July 10, 2017

Hey now we have an actual doc to argue over instead of a bunch of tweets. #wotcstaff https://t.co/5lsADd83nt

— Mike Mearls (@mikemearls) July 10, 2017

Sat down with @ToddKenreck to talk about this week’s UA and more – https://t.co/X5TWDevFL8

— Mike Mearls (@mikemearls) July 10, 2017

@mikemearls With the Greyhawk initiative variant, if a mystic wanted to use a talent or discipline, would they roll a d10 or something else?

— Jordan Elliott (@JordanE7) July 10, 2017

I'd use a d10 Mike Mearls about his new
initiative system in unearthed Eric onna
we also found time to talk about bonus
actions and what is the definition of
broken in a role-playing game
what is this news unearthed Arcana about
so for this new one it starts back early
on in the year like on January February
before I was getting ready for Gary Khan
which is a convention held in honor of
DB co-creator Gary Gygax and so I was
running events at Gary Cohn I thought it
will be fun there take this addition and
I’ve been think about doing this for a
while and sort of say what would you
change with the game to make it look
more like des was played in the 70s
scene in the eighties and one thing I
always set out with me was the
initiative system and how in second
edition initiative year old every round
and your each player roll the d-10 and
your result was modified but what you
wanted to do so everyone had to declare
exactly what they wanted to do then they
rolled initiative and in play we never
really actually use that rule because it
was just kind of a real pain to like
whatever been doing then to remember
everything and a lot of their stuff so I
like doing these little challenges
myself so you know to think okay what if
I took the interesting thing about that
system which is every round the order
changes you can’t really predict and try
to solve that so the idea was by
attaching each action to a different
type of die you could roll your
initiative and then you could just kept
the dice in front of you you’d always
kind of keep an idea of what what you
said you’re going to do and then on top
of that rather than say specifically
like I’m going to attack this orc where
I’m going to move to this spot the
system just has you control like I’m
going to move and I’m going to attack
but I get to pick where and what target
when it’s my turn and so the funny thing
was when I play test with this system it
actually worked pretty well as fun is
fun to play players liked it I was
running it for my group that we play on
Mondays and so I decided what the heck
I’ll try running this at Gary Cohn and
see how it goes and I ran a couple games
and it went pretty well and then I had
to run a game on Saturday night with
like 15 16 players and I figured what
the heck you know I’ll just try using it
again because if it runs well with 16
then there is something here
and it works pretty well right I mean
setting aside the the difficulties
running the game for like 16 people it
would it seemed to do was it got the
group to talk to each other and make a
plan
and then everyone just sort of sat back
and waited for their turn but in a way
that was more focused on at the track
what’s going at the table because my
turn might come up right there’s some
tension of whom I get do I get to go
next I don’t know and I think that that
helped keep everyone’s attention focused
on the game rather than knowing why
don’t go for like you know three more
people get to go before I get to go so
I’m just going to stop paying attention
or going to get up and do something
because at any time your turn might come
up it seemed to like help focus people
in and because the group essentially
made it a little bit of a plan you kind
of knew okay here’s my role here’s what
I’m doing to help the group so I was
kind of surprised I thought I didn’t
think it would work as well as it did
I’m not saying it’s like awesome and
this is the new initiative system
officially but it actually works really
well for I wanted to do and there was an
interesting sort of game design lesson I
think that kind of falls out of this
like this system is of course more
complicated than the Fez editions is
doing right there’s more moving parts
there’s more stuff to learn but it does
provide more drama in the form of
turning up the turn order every very
every round you know it’s always
shifting and so it really becomes when
you look at a game mechanic you always
have to think about it in context of
what it’s supposed to do you know some
people would look at it and I’ve seen
some people might say this is
essentially like well this is just more
complicated so I would ever want to use
it well the idea is if you don’t want an
issue to be complicated and of course
you wouldn’t want this but if you want
to add a bit more drama and structure to
combat this actually helps a lot and
what I’ve noticed the thing that has
stood out to me the most is that in
terms of flow of play what it does
Leeson when it’s working and what I’ve
run it now I can’t guarantee it is going
to happen to your table because you’re
not me I’m running the thing I kind of
improbably you know it’s kind of sprung
on my mind it’s a tool I built it’s
probably well what I want to do but it
turned each round of combat into a
miniature story you know rather than
combat being this flow thing let’s just
just keeps cycling around and at any
point in the cycle there’s no real
differentiator between any other point
on the cycle next door to before you
know or after it this sort of said okay
now it’s the Saran what’s going to
happen and when I noticed was the player
started to kind of create these little
narratives just organically
like oh hey this right oh the the wizard
got hurt really bad last round so okay
we need to protect the Whizzer didn’t
get a healing spell on them or that
guy’s trying to get away so we need to
stop him so maybe like two or three
characters would
say well I’m gonna try to go run and
close the door because we’re hoping one
of the three characters would roll well
enough initiative to beat the guy who’s
trying to run away whereas in the
cyclical initiative system its quarter
fifth edition you don’t have that
potential for drama because you know
when everyone’s going to go and can you
just know the range is going before the
guy well there’s no drama there like
there’s no like you’re just going to go
before the guys who just walk by him and
close the door you know or whatever it
is and the idea is you’re increasing
complexity in a system but the payoff in
drama and storytelling might be enough
to justify adding more complexity here
and then obviously this is an optional
system it’s not I unless we had some
crazy super overwhelmingly positive
response to it you know like maybe you
can see it being in a choral book like
whatever you know eight years now for
looking at a sixth edition whenever that
is the maybe showing up as an optional
rule in the future of sorts Booker’s and
like that but but I think it’s kind of
showing now where we are with SIF
Edition like the games now but not for
almost three years and so we know the
system and players in DMS now know the
system well enough we have enough sort
of flight time with it to really kind of
start understanding but maybe some ways
to change it and modify it that we never
would have occurred to us like I never
if back in 2012 or 13 when we’re
designing the game you’d said oh you’re
going to here’s this initiative system
in like no way that doesn’t why would we
do that
but now that you got you know the game’s
kind of again get even more from even
having designed it I feel like I’m more
fluent in it today than I was in 2014
and that fluency that understanding of
the structure of it then once you start
saying where could I add more drama
where could I shift things unexpected
directions it might have a good payoff
in play for certain types of players in
Dungeon Master’s how does your
initiative system work so the way the
system works is at the the comments
broken down into rounds which if you
played a D&D like you know what rounds
are before we played some third rounds
well I think third use rounds the unit
of measure but basically that means
around is everyone takes a turn one
sevens taking the turn the round is over
it’s like a boxing match except it’s
like thirty people fighting and then so
the start of the round the players all
declare what they want to do and the
dungeon master decides the monsters and
the declaration in this system is pretty
straightforward it’s just like I want to
move an attack if you
based on what you want to do you then
pick up dice and roll them for your
initiative so moving is a d6 attacking
is a d8 cast misspell the d-10 making a
ranged attack as a d4 and then anything
if anything isn’t covered by those
categories just a d6 so if I decide on
my turn
I want to dodge and move I pick up a d6
for dodging and a d6 removing I roll
those add them together the results my
initiative the Dungeon Master starts
counting up from 1 the way I would run
as I said where me 172s
also with them I’ll still roll four
monsters as a group those five works are
all going to move an attack on April 1
through all of them so typically what
I’ll do is let’s say if the party is
fighting five orcs and an ogre I’ll I’ll
roll the orcs neo gorilla to the Oryx
get is 7 and the yoghurt get to 9 I’ll
start by saying is anyone have less than
a 7 okay you enjoy your group you guys
will just get to go when you want to do
yeah well what is it that you’re doing
the and then we count up then once
everyone’s gone that’s the end of the
round so the so obviously in each round
you can’t really predict you have some
sense if you choose actions that have
loads small smaller dice to roll that
you’re probably going to get a lower
initiative but you can’t guarantee it so
it’s a good example in a game I was
running at Gary Cohn actually the
players were looting a tomb of a jester
and the Jester popped out on a gesture
of this really vicious knife he starts
attacking the players and he managed to
attack the wizard and crit him critted
him so the wizard had like three hit
points left and so the players only win
the next round the Jester is still next
to the wizard we need to help the wizard
so that’s where I kind of think about
soul a little story comes to know this
round we have to protect a wizard and
they didn’t with the Jester rolled like
you know he was just attacking and not
moving hero the one he killed them would
kill the wizard before the party could
help him and that drama I think really
made that fight a lot more interesting
from a storytelling perspective because
under the standard fifth edition rule
system you might know okay the Jester
just went attacked was even kid and it
landed a crit on him we know now that
everyone in the party is going to have a
chance to act before the Jester can go
again what this system does it says
you’re not really sure if anyone’s going
to be able to get to go again because
it’s based on the die rolls before that
jester attacks again so the dad seems to
add some more attention to the game if
you’re someone who can cast a spell then
you may opt to not
spell and actually use deranged attack
like you could be a really powerful
sorcerer and then realized maybe you
should just throw a dagger right now
we’re shooting arrow arrow or throw a
spear instead of actually doing a really
powerful spell exactly because that
might be you get to earlier and that’s
kind of what was interesting about it is
watching I give the example of there’s a
monster who’s trying to get away and
there’s a door well someone can block
the door
well okayed it may be getting the
regular system you know who’s going to
go next or you know it’s the monster who
just went okay but always trying to get
away now and it’s the cleric the fighter
the ranger in the wizard well the the
fighter will block the door no one’s
worried about it but now it’s like well
since we didn’t know he wanted to get
away when he declared actions for this
round we can’t change that or maybe we
could if registed I want to move I can
move over to the door but when you’re
rolling in ishtam you’re planning then
you have to decide well maybe we should
have more than one character try to go
block the door because what if we get
unlucky like if only one character’s
doing it would if that player rolls
poorly and this guy gets away like the
fighter says why just all I’m going to
do is move on rolling in the d6 I just
want to walk up and stand in front of
the door well he rolls a six and the bad
guy was also saying I’m just going to
remove and everyone well the sequence is
the bad guy goes out the door then the
fighters turn it’s too late the guys
already out the door you know so you
might have a couple characters decide
we’re all even trying to move because
one of us might get a lower initiative
so now I can walk in front of the door
before the guy gets his chance to go is
there any potential frustration with
with decisions that have nothing
happened like yes no there is why we go
defend that risk that is 100 set the
risk right and that’s why then then you
can always do if they want to move an
attack or I want to move over here so
yeah there is so there’s tension but
what I what I found so far is that the
tension away is the frustration I can’t
think of a time when a player tried to
do yeah now again I’ve only run this
like you know four or five six sessions
like that so it’s possible especially if
you early on if you’re just alleged want
to attack so I’m not going to move
typically what I found is players
learned pretty quickly like they should
you should always move short throw the
extra die for movement because then that
pretty much guarantees you probably to
do something useful unless the enemy
does something really odd the way fifth
fifth edition is designed you know
assuming
has the same speed the only way you can
just totally disengage is if you run
which would be in this system you and
then you’re provoking opportunity
attacks and things like that you know
so the yeah so it hasn’t happened there
is the potential but I think that that
potential is what creates the tension
and the drama you know without the risk
of failure or frustration then you don’t
have the reward of why I’ve rolled the –
I get to go first right I did block the
door before you got away I feel
achievement if you know that that’s
going to happen automatically then it’s
not it’s not remarkable right that’s
just just us what’s going to happen you
know it’s all it’s all scripted so yeah
that’s what your risk and that’s again
why it’s an optional rule right because
not and so I would be surprised whatever
became an actual core this is the actual
official rule for the game yeah bet
brings me back to like second edition
where every weapon had its own
initiative modifier on it like if you
had a battle ax you’re not you probably
not going to before I guy with the
dagger it’s interesting there’s this
entire backdrop of you know when third
edition came out you know especially in
Lyon mm you know TSR had just gotten a
business been sort of revived saved but
not on a business but had been bought by
Wizards I think there was a kind of not
backlash that’s overstating it but this
idea that ad and he did a lot of stuff
wrong and really in the future we’re
just going to do this things we won’t
try doing again and so some of this has
been a reaction to that thinking well
what if what if I sooner that’s not
wrong that’s actually correct but could
I design it so it’s a little easier to
use of the table so that you can get the
upside out of it without the downside
the and a lot sometimes driven by we’ve
seen you know when we launched fifth you
know the idea was well you know third
and fourth edition players were open
thinking they may come along right but
what’s been really interesting
anecdotally is that we had all these
people coming out the woodwork we’re
like I’ve been played be indecent second
edition and that’s what kind of like
prompted this like was there like this
big population of second edition players
who didn’t you know pick up third or
didn’t come along with their maybe they
try didn’t they stop playing because
kind of I think third symbol anyway talk
about fifth where it’s been three years
since the release and now I think we’re
really starting to understand the game
in a way we couldn’t before
I think third had an even more dramatic
feel
we’re a few when I pick up third I
played it like second edition so it was
all that’s just easier this system is
easier but after three years when people
sort of figure out how magic items work
and how spell casting they were and how
powerful buffs are we were playing third
edition and then by then 35 in a much
different way than we played it when I
first started it became its own game and
so it’s sort of interesting when you
think about you know how the game
involves you know there and especially
now as you access more information and
everything and can do more studying
people playing your game and understand
why the you cannot just go back and just
any any I think anything we did on 5th
that we just did unquestionably like the
initiative system ran out a point now we
need to go back and reexamine it and
start questioning why did we do it this
way you know so that’s this is I mean
potentially this is might be the first
of a series of things we do where we
just tried tweaking rules that you just
assume of course you wouldn’t change
that it works perfectly fine the and the
transition process was full blows right
when we went with advantage and
disadvantage in place of like a big
table of charts there was enormous
enormous push back against that until
internally on the design team not by
everyone but a lot of people until we
got the play test feedback where it was
it might still be the most highly rated
game mechanic we’ve introduced a
physician in terms of people rating it
as they liked it like it was one of
those things where the designer you
start thinking about like oh I really
worry about the math and like I want
things look smooth and coherent and
elegant and you start developing these
definitions of things like elegant and
functional and proper that might not
really match up with what a player would
perceive as this is actually making my
game more fun so yeah that’s this kind
of is like the first potentially in a
series of things well you’ll see us
going back and like here’s an altered
version of this other thing you didn’t
think would ever change and let’s see
what happens so what is that like
watching it evolve likey are you always
wanting to tinker oh yeah of course yeah
oh I have completely I’ve like rewritten
in me and I think I’ve rewritten the
entire combat system a couple times now
because you just do a lesser changing it
then it fossilizes when you’re stuck
like okay this is how he never one
visited like well that’s just how it is
right that’s boring right that’s you
know like I didn’t read it at AMA and I
said I don’t like bonus action
now if you’d asked me back in 2014 and
said bundle actions are great they’re
such a great but I would have been
talking like a designer I would have
said oh they do all this regulation in
the system and they please fill this
other stuff I wasn’t thinking it as a
player not I played the game for three
years I can say to myself as I watch
people learn and advert of myself
I think bonus actions are kind of a hack
there’s this extra thing you have to
learn and you really don’t need to
design it that way you can design the
game without bonus actions and not lose
anything and then if you’re not losing
anything then what are you gaining well
did your sphere gaining the simplicity
of I don’t have to worry about what I
don’t teach somewhat Epona’s action is
anymore
the it seems like that yeah I’m curious
like so how does it work how could you
play the game with that bone attack it’s
a really recon supply you say think of
things because this is always the danger
like play testing will work for a lot of
things the play testing a concept is
difficult because people will always but
this is how it works now how do I do all
these things I’m doing now without this
thing so I’ll give you an example
imagine if the rogue had a special
ability called sneak attack it as an
action you can make an attack range
normally if the attacker when you throw
in you’re here so sneak attack work so
this has happened you get this bonus
damage plus before or after you make a
stack you can hide dodge whatever the
options are for pending action that’s it
like I have now just solved like that
for that now this is the thing and you
there isn’t like one rule that comes in
and cleans them all up you have to go
back and look at all the classes are
really using bonus actions and then say
well can i reexpress this in a way that
gets rid of bonus actions but then on
top of that you need to reexpress in a
way that says hey this actually makes us
easier to understand and I think that’s
what happens is because bonus actions
and this is now something I’ve grown to
dislike in game design I don’t like
things that rest on top of other things
because I think they’re they’re hard to
like it’s really fun for a collectible
card game because that’s the foundation
of it I have this card that combined
with this card now some new effect I
don’t think that’s necessarily part of a
role-playing game is a core element of
it the I think you want some of that but
I don’t think you necessarily want it
residing in like the actions you take as
opposed to the character that you build
if you like optimization or you like
trying to create wacky characters you
know the old thing like well race I want
to play a half work wizard that’s just
interesting right like you’re just
combining two things but in the course
of playing a tabletop role-playing game
I think having that same structure
I’m adding two things together to
determine my action I think it’s
actually confusing and I think it leads
to design that isn’t fully coherent and
by that I mean we see this all the time
we actually saw this in Zanna tars and
is working on signifiers that really
solidified to me that I didn’t like
bonus actions you’d see all the time
these things of oh this new option
doesn’t work well at weapon fighting
because – I’m fighting requires you’ve
used your bonus action it’s like yeah
okay now the bonus action has gone from
policing things to getting in the way
because I don’t mind if you’re fighting
with weapons and you’re you know you’re
playing some subclass that gets some
special magical effect you’re a
barbarian and you get to do something
else while you’re aging or whatever it
is you’re a rogue and you’re going to
use your cutting action to hide I don’t
that’s fine that’s actually not it’s
gone from policing things keeping power
and check to like actually preventing
you from doing something that’s
interesting and fun and actually not
broken there’s nothing broken about I
move to weapon fighting then move back
and hide like that that’s not broken
well it’s not even necessarily like if
this isn’t a competition so it had to
have some brokenness isn’t a bad thing
like it’s sometimes good to have players
feel like they got they got the better
of you and that’s another entire video
on what brokenness is not everything
because that is a that is a huge thing
people use the term broken and broken as
meaningless allowed without context
what’s broken in Dungeons and Dragons
might not be broken in a different game
or different genre of game like what is
broken like if you have to decide what
it’s broken actually mean our functional
definition of broken Dungeons and
Dragons means a character who is
powerful enough to the point that the
other players don’t feel that they’re
packing their characters are powerful or
a monster that’s powerful enough let’s
DM uses it as intended it either defeats
the party too easily or that’s it I
actually months is queasy it’s actually
not as bad like I don’t I don’t know if
we would a rat a monster that was too
easy but if a monster is okay it’s
supposed to be CR v and it’s actually
should be CR like 12 right the so that’s
what kind of brokenness um Dean D is is
just things that get in the way of the
story you’re trying to tell this is not
a story of five heroes who came together
and like have to you know work together
to win it’s a story about this one
character there where else is falling
around right that would be broken
the so in that context like to have a
fighting and hiding that’s not broken
that’s perfect that’s what the Rogues
supposed to do that’s your job that’s
your kind of
your unique thing so but that’s the
point you always want players feel like
their character special so I mean with
the Eldred tonight then you would just
simply say instead he can take a boat
section and cast a can trip just make a
new action called like you know Eldridge
tactics s let’s call it L just acts as
an action pick a can trip and cast it
and make a single melee attack yeah and
that was just there and if you do I have
similar to me hide they can just use it
together because I’m a bonus actions are
there they’re there and they’re doing
their work we have we’re going to work
with it and we’re not going to suddenly
rewrite the entire game but it’s one of
those things it’s like okay maybe for
996 could go not even close no it’s
actually great with the fifth edition is
doing we actually at one point we’re
like do we want to change I think
there’s like a footer in the books we’re
like not quite like oh I mean we should
like you know do something to change
there’s like a page I figure it was for
like no let’s not change it because like
we’re styling so many of these books we
don’t want people to feel like although
the new addition or a change or there’s
like you know there’s actually a
functional difference between two copies
that they look different the because in
the past we have been freer with
revising things and I’ll be honestly
thanks to the big open play test we
don’t really have those issues this time
around
so the yeah we’re probably earning the
side of not changing things you know it
might be a reaction to the past when we
would change things all the time but but
I also feel like you know I kind of and
say that’s definite reaction the past
we’re not changing things because we
like the stability I also don’t feel
that other than the Ranger animal
companion issue we haven’t had anything
that’s boiled up as like a consistent
you know the idea is it’s a bell curve
right in the middle of people who are
just playing something thing all this
perfectly fine on the extreme one
extreme side that people say this
thing’s broken it’s way too good they’re
on the other side you can equal number
people saying this thing is underpowered
like that’s where almost every game
element rests you know forever to think
something is too good there’s so many
things is too weak and that’s just what
you’re going to have because of the
vagaries of playing at your specific
table your campaign well it’s the same
thing that I’ve mentioned to people in
the comments on the on my channel is
that I worked for a video game they felt
that this gun was underpowered and all
we did was increased the sound effect
more of a thunderous boom explosion
sound
the next time we play tested it was like
hundreds of hundreds of people they said
oh yeah the weapon feels strong yeah
it’s old our feel right right there who
will do the math and they can try to
tell but it’s it’s all what feels like
emotional reaction because that’s what
games are games aren’t math problems
yeah well they shouldn’t be yeah they
should have very the yeah you have one
see in the map that’s more
implementation of an idea but not the
idea itself game design isn’t really a
spreadsheet it’s more of a it is like
more like storytelling in the sense of
you’re not telling a story you’re giving
people an environment in which stories
can take place and the spreadsheet
stuff’s important like once you said
this is what the story is when you start
okay let’s implement it because you do
have your what good whatever your
definition of it is for broken so you
need to know that right and but yeah but
the first and foremost is like what is a
player my experiencing and that’s what I
want that’s important thank you Mike
girls for being on the show yet again if
you’d like to support further videos
like this you can go to the den to my
patreon page and in the exchange can get
behind zoom switch early access to our
videos and really be part of our
community also if you are interested in
getting any of the awesome things you
can find on the wormwood gaming site you
should really check it out they have
awesome dice towers they have dense
master screenshttps://t.co/n5gzHLnQ34

— Mike Mearls (@mikemearls) July 10, 2017