hello and welcome to GM tips the show
where my friends and I share with you
our thoughts and suggestions on how to
gamemaster your role-playing game
I’m your host Satine Phoenix co-creator
of Mazur Khanna and a dungeon master on
Fury’s reach some of you want to play
your typical fantasy game running
through dungeons and gathering items to
take back to sell for gold there’s
nothing wrong with that in fact it’s
actually pretty fun sometimes you want
to dive deeper into your role-playing
experience want to be surrounded by it
to breathe it in as if the story were a
decadent incense we want the game to
excite us scare us make us feel
something more today we discussed
creating mood and with our special guest
Ivan Van Norman suspense let’s dissect
this by looking at fear inducing themes
people enjoy these because they make
them feel intensely suspense
anticipation giving the player enough
time and specific limited curated
information to fill in the blanks with
their own fears and imagination deep
fear isn’t created by showing you a
scary monster it’s knowing there’s a
monster nearby but wondering what the
monster could possibly be watching a
monster eat a dead body versus watching
pieces of bone picked clean get thrown
into a large wet pile of bones one at a
time from around a corner would you hear
the knowing and snarling of the monster
knowing it’s one creature of vs. in my
imagination it’s the possibility of
monsters that could be big enough to
tear me apart it’s the possibility of
any monster that could make that
specific noise allow the players to sit
on that fear and anticipation
so the monster actually comes along they
have a built-in fear making it much more
frightening than it actually is the
players react to both the monster and
their fear of it mood setting let’s use
a room to describe mood setting in this
room we have four walls of equal length
one door made of wood with a brass
handle a dresser with photos and a
jewelry box on top a four-poster bed
with pillows and a blanket a closet with
two sliding mirrored doors two side
tables with lamps
if drawn on a map it would look like
outlines of a simple bedroom the players
would know generally how
they would navigate the room if I wanted
to fill the players of anxiety and
describe the room you walk through a
brightly lit hallway at the end of which
the lacquered wooden door partially
opened the sound of television blasts
through the opening as you walk in you
cover your ears as the black and white
men on this old TV engaged in battle
from across the room their screams and
gunshots bombard your senses the drawers
of the dresser open and close hanging
and scatter about the floor into
shuffled bed picture frames and images
obscured by broken glasses strategically
on the dresser a jewelry box overturned
reveals a twisting ballerina walk you
through the room there’s an electricity
in the air and the carpet feels like
walking on crumpled paper if I wanted to
feel the players of dread I’d say you
walk through a hallway the only light
emanating dimly from under a door to the
room at the end the quiet in the house
envelops you you open the old wooden
door its brass handle as wet and the
door creaks open with a loud and you
notice a light from the rooms coming
from an old TV half revealed from within
the closet static and nothing else
shadows pour over most of the room the
dust thick in the air covers a dresser
in the bed walking through the room he
smelled a heavy musk of fresh blood
suddenly BAM the door slams shut and the
shadows rustle across the walls over the
bed then down to the floor and you get
the feeling something that’s stalking
you from under the bed and if I wanted
to fill the players of mystery I
described the room the hallways warm
candlelit sconces leads you to an
elaborately carved wooden door it’s
antique handle gives easily and you’re
flooded with a sweet smell of cinnamon
and apples and something else as you
gaze into the massive chamber the
carvings on the grand oak four-poster
bed dancing the light of the lamps on
the night stands the frames on the
photos of the dresser stand out from the
dark burgundy walls but the item that
catches your attention is the long ivory
and Jade jewelry box that sits further
down the dresser it’s gold lock unlatch
in each of these three descriptions
you’re filled with different emotions
based on what you imagine from what I
described GM skills reading people and
listening in order to navigate player
emotions it’ll be good to exercise
you’re reading people and listening
skills players will tell you what
they’re afraid of or what they’re
interested in or their body language is
and how or what they say next rule
playing as they say isn’t acting it’s
reacting the game master provides the
environment and NPCs the players react
to what’s given to them the game has to
react to their reactions and so on it’s
playing like kids be honest about your
reactions relinquish yourself to the
agreed-upon story and play in the most
honest way listen to one another and
make your choice about what to do next
based on what your party does this is
role-playing this is game mastering
reading people and listening gives you
the ingredients to hit those perfect
time moments to evoke the emotion you
want your players and sometimes those
moments live in the silence today we
discussed creating mood and with our
special guests I’ve been banned Normand
suspense I could roll on but instead
let’s discuss this with the creator of
sagas of sundry Dredd outbreak undead
the ABCs of RPGs and the king of
suspense
Ivan Van Norman welcome thank you having
me back it’s good that you’re back it’s
back at the table talking about GM tips
and we get to talk about after a big
thing like dread happening you can
actually go a beautiful experience thank
you so much for sharing we were
literally just a silly talking even
beforehand it’s like you have all the
best qualities did you bring into a
player it was joyful it was honest it
was intense so many tears you did all
the things that you want in every player
that you have in a game don’t even you
let’s talk about you for a little bit
Mukerjee mess sure you are hoping to
mind if I don’t make eye contact because
it’s gonna be hard okay tell me what’s
up you have this way we already have
this deep masculine voice right but
because you like to play games that are
very true and honest to you like man you
really utilize the scary and you got a
little intense sometimes and it was fun
cuz you don’t get to just like a player
you don’t often always get the
opportunity to like stretch your
boundaries and go outside of your
comfort zone in order to get something
that’s really impactful but we were all
in such a like a heated mix of like
creating cool moments that it was really
it was it was good to be able to come
out and just be like especially in the
last episode just like having that
intensity just come out on that certain
level have it feel like have it
translated into what you guys were
dealing with at the time it was it was
terrifying and satisfying even in my own
skin nobody could tell we were so
involved and you your voice was because
of the where you were sitting and it was
very strategic the way you laid
everybody out and and the lighting and
the sound of your voice came from like
the back of our heads and the way when
we pulled from the tower you would hover
around us and the pacing of your voice
was very interesting and it was a it was
usually you don’t get a chance to do
that at a traditional table to like get
up and have that like that that thing
that wants to talk to you it was
essentially at a demon in the angel that
we’re supposed to be talking to but
instead it’s the dungeon master telling
you what you need to be dealing with
right now it’s a book it’s a good bit
that but that but that like that begins
all the way character creation – yeah
and you were very good about nurturing
us you’re like okay this isn’t a normal
game
guys let’s talk about put a lot of
disclaimers on this show there was a lot
of disclaimers on Dredd that we
expressed late
I felt it was important for me to tell
everyone I said I said we’re gonna do
some bad things you don’t have to do any
of the challenges you can choose not to
do any of the challenges at any time if
you’re uncomfortable but I’m going in I
think it early the words was is that I
want you to make all the hard choices
and I’m my job is to hurt you
essentially like I what I want is is I
want you to feel so good about the
character that you created that when we
break that shell with true and honest
fear if I’m doing my job right and I’m
breaking that shell then there’s still
the gooey center that’s inside is your
character and not satine another
disclaimer though is that we are good
friends yes and everybody that was there
are good friends so we all had a base
trust base trust which is important
because it’s actually it’s easier to
have an argument in character with
someone if you already have that base
trust yeah in place you get to strangers
even really strong actors you kind of
have to like because there’s that
millisecond where people can question is
this something that is okay for me to do
right now yeah that can sometimes mean
the difference between like a good
performance and a phenomenal
performance you know yeah that was
really interesting because I innately
felt like I had to apologize ahead of
time so when we all walked into the
green room I was like I just want to
tell you all I’m really sorry because
I’m going to say things and you need to
know that Satine is not saying this
right the character sat is saying this
but because we all had those things to
say to one another we all were like I’m
gonna say things to you know you feel
very kindred to you in that because I
did the same thing even when we sat down
and was ready to begin it’s like I’m I
apologize in advance for any anxiety
stress fear and issues I may bring up in
this game but I’m gonna do it it’s gonna
happen and and just know that this is
still a safe place and if you don’t want
to do some of these things or if it’s
too much you just yell cut and just tell
me
never got there because we were all
really comfortable so that is actually
kind of a build-up to the suspense right
so you’re instilling this idea into the
players heads before you even start
playing the game right you say it’s a
scary game okay it’s a scary game but
this is your background yeah and I want
you to push and I want you to go deep
into your emotions in your head and so
before we even get there were frightened
right and that’s the point I couldn’t
begin literally a character creation and
when we did the questionnaires remember
we did the first round of questionnaires
with be just the ittt game and that was
all very standard dread like let’s
create some good character arcs in which
to create some moments and intensity out
of but then the second one and the
second follow-up meeting that I did with
you guys was about okay now how can we
take this interesting little character
son that you make and how can we make
her up oh here’s a long time yes
like a lot can happen oh I could how did
it happen and it was literally about
that transition of like okay you have a
really interesting character set and
this is something that we’re working on
but what’s really going on like in to be
able to go into there and say that and
make and make whoever you’re playing
with ask that question I’m sorry have
the game master ask that question and
have that player answer it in a way that
they’re like okay well I guess there is
something going on I had no idea that I
would make her that that character was
going I guess I shouldn’t say all the
details but you know there were no I
think it’s fair to say some of the
details I mean she lived you know she
got kicked out of her home she had a
drug problem yeah she lived basically in
a tent under a bridge like those were
all things we discovered in character
creation
yeah and they were things that you were
like well maybe she’s had some trouble
at home like is she having problems at
home or is she like did she get kicked
out of her house and why did she get
kicked out or why did she get kicked out
of her house and you came up with all of
the good stuff and it was just me
basically saying said that’s good but
how can we how can we make the hard
choice these are good choices but how
can we make
a hard choice and you made all the hard
choices you did it and then you brought
them to the table with you and it was
great suspense and drama timing we
talked a bit about suspense and how what
you say is scary right but it’s not
always in what you say sometimes it’s
about the silence as a game master how
do you navigate that so
suspense is sometimes about painting a
picture of what’s not there versus what
is there because it’s really easy to
describe a monster but can you describe
a monster without describing the monster
can you paint the picture of how it
sounds how it looks how it’s walking
where is it coming from
what’s it showing these are the things
that build suspense not necessarily like
the gruesome Moloch those are great for
the initial reveals and like the the the
like when you want to get that in
adrenaline dump right there that’s fine
for that but when you want to build
suspense you want to you want to create
negative space in the scenario instead
of just painting the details in the line
like the first alien was always my
favorite like throw back into that
because that was in a lot of those shots
it was just a mask with a trash bag you
know but because of the use of shadow
and the use of light and the way that it
it’s there and it’s not and just the
fact that that 90% of that monster for
like the air-duct scene it’s just a blip
it’s just a sound bite and that’s what’s
scary not seeing this thing like
crawling through a hole coming at you ya
know the thing is my favorite right
where you have this entire movie of what
it does and what and it the way people
are reacting to it you never see it you
never know what it is and it’s good
because you know we earn when you are
essentially give people permission to
not trust each other they will then not
trust each other and what that movie did
is it gave every
character in that story permission to
not trust each other and that was the
other part too about when inserting hop
back to character creation real quick
but we I think one of the first things
we said to when we were putting things
together it’s like I am giving you
permission to make the hard choices this
is not one of those shows where I want
you to play light because like then
naturally you don’t want to offend your
fellow player you want you all know that
playing games with each other we want to
help each other right we want to make
each other feel good right but you need
that permission you need that permission
because if you don’t get that permission
then you’re just an you know
that’s making people uncomfortable yeah
but everybody knows what they’re getting
into and it’s consensual and everyone’s
permissions are asked and everyone knows
what they’re getting into you can make
some really magnificent stuff so yeah
it’s a and then beyond just drama and
time like you learn at some point when
you have watched either enough movies or
you’ve seen the reaction from people
it’s back to when we were first we’re
talking all those ages ago is when the
first episode of GM tips about listening
yeah to your players drama and suspense
is still about listening and body
language and there’s a moment in dread
in which I wasn’t planning on going up
and touching darby at all like that was
not a plan at all but looking at her i
could see that she was very much at ease
and in horrid as often about the calm
before the storm right yeah and so she
was clearly in a calm space and time and
stuff and I actually had to ask myself
as I was getting at moving towards like
is this too much right now is like what
I’m going to do to her right now is this
is this me being aggressively insane or
is this gonna make a good moment and I
had to give myself permission to be like
this is what you want to do you can see
how relaxed she is right now let’s do
something about that yeah let’s make
this and she jumped out of her skin and
we all saw you can see it on film yeah
so here’s the thing like dread is an
extreme example it’s an extreme example
she’s yes so how do four players who are
just making tabletop games they want to
add suspense to their games
like what can they do without having to
get up and move around right the big
thing is is that use like you can use
props in small things to help build
suspense like mood and lighting and
tension but I think it is just about
going to your players and saying I
really would like to make a dark game
and I’d like you to play this dark a
game with me and I’d like to make some
interesting choices with you that I
think would be fun and then cuz once
everybody’s committed into it then as
the dungeon master you just start
looking at how the breadcrumbs are
placed and it’s literally as simple as
is this player really into this story
hook because you know they have an inner
demon like okay this character has an
inner demon and how do we milk that so
that it works with the other players or
this character is really afraid of the
dark okay well how can we make them feel
safe and a light and hopeful and then
out of nowhere drop them into darkness
like how can you you have to be a little
malicious when you play that suspense
and terrible because your job is to take
people’s fears yeah and exploit them but
in like say a D&D game you can add those
elements in and out of scenes right so I
guess it’s more about saying I would
like to do this once in a while really
want to push you sometimes and I’ll lift
you back but you know this is a kind of
game we’re gonna play let’s breathe
because it is all about you know you
pull back to everyone can take a breath
otherwise it’s just all drivel all the
time yeah and it’s difficult yeah
in a standard game when you’re just kind
of having fun with your friends if you
want to add some suspense and tension
first to it first of all get permission
from your group give yourself permission
to do it and then find something unique
in your characters that you can go and
build suspense around or if you don’t
really want to have to be character
focusing you just want to get a monster
or something that’s terrifying inside of
it learn how you can create that
negative space of whatever that creature
is if it’s a ghoul how do you show what
the ghouls done before you get to the
ghoul if it’s something like an undead
dracolich it’s like what does this reign
of destruction and what does what are
these details that showcase how
and terrifying and terrible and gory
this Lich’s before you even get to them
because there’ll be so much more scared
of your monster if you show them just
what they’re capable instead of showing
them what they’re capable of when they
get there because then they have to
react to the most extreme while they’re
in the moment so that’s exact accrete
versus threat right
oh yes creep versus threat so when I was
putting all this together and even in
some of my older horror games like
without break and stuff you sometimes
have to balance this idea of creep
versus threat creep is what is the
visceral terrible things that people
fear and how do you get that reaction
out of them with this versus the threat
which is actually something that’s
physically harming their life like a
like a cultist would be high threat
because they’re usually out to kill you
or do things or move things together you
know while the like the the the pool of
blood and the sacrificial altar that
they’ve put together is high creep but
it doesn’t pose a lot of threat to the
players so you have to balance it you
have to give them a little bit of creep
and then you have to give them a little
bit of threat because if it’s just creep
the whole time then you kind of a boring
uneventful yeah bane yeah but if you’re
just doing threat then it’s not scary of
an action film yeah you know what I mean
so where do you get it and in the case
of dread it was very clear in my mind
what was high creep and what was high
threat and what was kind of a middle
creep and middle threat without getting
into spoilers – yeah well in that it was
interesting because we had already
played a session right and so we brought
our own level of fear into the second
session right and you had expectations
which thankfully I broke yeah you know
so let’s go into that honesty it would
not the experience that I had playing
with you and Matt and everybody else for
keep using dread as an analog would not
have been the experience that it was if
you guys weren’t 100% totally honest
100% said that what you were doing
how you were doing it so I mean this is
more of a question for you like what did
you feel like brought honesty into into
what you were doing well no cell phones
yeah I mean there were cameras
everywhere when we not with their result
there’s more cameras than I’ve ever
experienced on a set it was really cool
yeah but yeah the way we were sitting
and engaged with one another the
surrounding really helped the lighting
helped but we were ready to play and we
were so we knew our characters very well
we knew what we were capable of right we
were excited to bring in our backstory
and we at all all of us wanted had a
timing thing where we wanted to plant
certain seeds throughout and then you
hovering and it was just you created
this world for us to exist in and we
just wanted to be a part of it so bad
and you committed to it when you got in
there you didn’t look back which is
that’s that old adage of like no
distractions at the table right yeah so
you you were so invested into what was
going on there is a part that didn’t
make it in I think it was like Episode
four and you got in episode 4
you guys cut sound in the Edit which was
genius but I think I screamed louder
than I’ve ever screamed before I was
like one of those guttural cries rooms
and I couldn’t believe it came out of my
mouth oh but it was because yeah I’m
like sorry I broke the mic but it was
really interesting because it was we
knew we were playing a game but we were
so invested that I could see everything
I could see the creatures coming at us I
could see that little pinhole light
everything was intense we were afraid
and I think I was holding a little toy
it was the most charming adorable thing
I’ve ever seen
to see that’s the thing about honesty –
it’s like silly moments like that where
you’re holding a plastic toy exit your
character holding it as if it was
actually going but it’s the only thing
you had and you found it as an anchor
and I saw that honesty there I’m like
yeah she’s she knows that’s useless but
it’s making her feel better right now
yes
so yeah it’s the honesty but it’s being
able to be honest with everybody and not
only in myself every single person was
honest nobody was distracted we were
patiently waiting to hear what everyone
else was saying and the quiet and you’re
quiet it was all encompassing so the
suspense isn’t just something that you
do is what I’m you crated – absolutely
it’s the entire group yeah everyone
somebody breaks it there everybody steps
out right it’s good get you were
definitely carrying the torch and if it
was a marathon you’re right no one ever
stopped to breathe no one ever put the
torch down at any time all just kept
running and rolling with it which was
great and it made me think about how
like and a lot of even in acting because
we were role-playing and we were
improving and we were all acting at the
same time but it really made me think
about how you guys were just reacting
and listening to each other like you
role playing for you was not just acting
flowing the drama and telling the story
about my magnificent character you were
just reacting I got terrible actors what
role playing game and a lot of your
acting was listening to and everyone
else was – they were just listening to
the tables and instead of thinking that
that that kind of that that kind of
whole you can get to in as an actor like
what’s my next line what’s my next line
what’s my next line like be ready with
the performance of my next line yes said
you were listening and you in your brain
were like okay no no that’s not how it
is or it’s like or you you burst it out
with what your character was actually
thinking because you’re actually
thinking like that but exactly you know
it doesn’t matter what lines you had and
in a weird way that’s what the great
part about role playing is is because it
removes scripted content out the door
and it says Satine she is yelling at you
right now what are you gonna do about it
oh hell no this is what it comes down to
and yeah that’s how you create some
honesty yeah so I’m going to jump in to
the last three questions okay but you’ve
already answered them so I’m gonna ship
them a little bit all right
have your
game house rules changed a bit since
Dredd I haven’t had a lot of pre a lot
of house games since the last time we
talked and read because we’ve been
having so many things read but I would
say definitely more there’s a lot more
pregame in the sense of expectations
like I always talked about I think even
in the last time we chatted I talked
about managing the expectations of your
players but now that feels even more
important to me than it’s ever been
because if we’re gonna do really intense
things I want them to know or if
literally the expectation is cuz a lot
of circumstances like a house game I
wouldn’t want to be intense
that’s why I do a dungeon crawl with my
friends yeah so I might be like guys I
know that your were like you know king
of suspense and
blah blah blah and all this stuff can we
just like kill dragon can we just do
that can I can I literally just roll up
a really really mad arranger and just
shoot some arrows right now you know
yeah and being able to be okay with
saying that and and no worries so you
know a new favorite GM moment I think it
has to be either between I think one of
them either has to be between Darby’s
legit scream and clasping her and
feeling feeling her body like crushed
into a tiny ball it was the one two
three moment in which like I saw someone
and I was like wow I really scared them
like I mean I was trying to create a
cool moment in all this but it’s like no
I really like that was a lot for them
she needed many hugs so many hugs
afterwards and I and I actually I
actually kind of vaguely remember after
that being no I don’t think so the only
it was any care after that because we
were still so in the moment but I
remember in my brain being like Oh
sweetie I’m so sorry like well I’m doing
this to you right now but I’m so sorry
know between I’ve abandoned she
loved it it was the best that’s also the
part of it too if you have as a GM if
you’re malicious you have to ask some
distich players as well our vice versa
if the GM’s a little sadistic you have
to have some malicious players yeah
masochistic yes all the words let’s
start with them
and the second one that was really
sincere was is talking and narrating and
telling you during episode four and
having everything kind of happened and
then walking around the table looking at
everyone’s reactions and getting to an
end and looking at you and you’re
already looking at me but it’s just like
mascara everywhere and I’m like oh like
what you mean cry was one of those where
it was like it was honest and I had like
I felt your sadness for a moment and it
was I used that it was like oh my god
that’s really really really sad right
now let’s use that against everybody
else in the table at the moment you know
so it felt a little bit like sadness
Taichi yeah spread spread the sadness
around the table a little bit it makes
me seem so
hey I know TM tip okay last question
okay
new GM tip if you’re looking to create
suspense or even horror tension even in
your games the first person you need to
give yourself permission to do something
crazy – is yourself like look inside of
whoever you are as a GM and be like okay
these are the things that I have done
and these are the things that I’m most
proud of how can I take it one step
further what can I do to commit one step
more than where I’ve been at previously
and I would say look at the one moment
that you’re the most proud of in a game
that you’ve played how did that make you
feel and then ask yourself okay what’s
the next step like if you made a really
grand moment because all of your players
are like they got the artifact they were
looking for and they’re celebrating and
all the crowds cheering around them how
do you scale that up even more to make
them feel like they’ve saved the world
that they’ve saved the universe that
they save this entire dimension you know
and then how do you take those little
things that they celebrated and just
crank it up to 11
likewise in fear how do you take
something that felt really good and then
just commit to it because I will say
that that one game I just broke all my
own boundaries before I even broke yours
it’s like I had to give myself
permission to go hard or go home so with
that to end this whole bit of suspense
fear all all the setting the mood and
tone I’m gonna go back to your original
GM tip was aftercare this is very
important and people don’t talk about
this a lot when you push people’s
boundaries you have to spend time with
them afterwards for hour two hours six
hours eight hour game over the most
multiple sessions just make sure you
spend time with your players talk with
them
they need like a half hour 15 minutes an
hour just give them attention and time
to pull them out because not a lot of
people are can do the things that we did
and read right it’s very very intense
it’s not always it’s not especially if
you have a lot that they’re going on
with at that time too if you’re hitting
buttons
you’re gonna hit buttons and you’re
right absolutely you have to create a
safe space so that’s a safe space go
talk to your players and go and give
them hugs tell them that you still love
them tell them that they’re great people
and that they’re making amazing moments
with you like be a good person through
through yeah I mean we to draw a little
bit of comparison to this when we were
done with the game we basically all just
like how to group hug and we and we laid
it all out what was happening and then
we were able to take that collective and
kind of put it away yeah I mean it took
like 12 hours of writing each other
telling us how each other how much we
love each other and shaking down group
texts and you know and and people other
people driving I’m home there was
another part too it’s like sometimes
after a big session like that you need
someone else to drive you home yeah very
important things you’ve just witnessed a
whole lot of I have an amazing this
that’s our show before we go Ivan please
share with everyone where we can find
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doing Furies reach in which I play johan
wild ohio there who is a deliciously
difficult dandy who happens to also be a
well
writer funny that as always i’m setting
phoenix at sateen phoenix you can ask me
GM took questions at hashtag asks a teen
and find me every Sunday at noon on
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TV / Mazur Khanna and every Tuesday
night 7:00 p.m. dungeon mastering on
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thank you for watching us here on geek &
sundry and see you next time
I even yes would you please as you stand
on a lonely road snow falls around you
feet deep as each one of the crunching
bits of sound echoes in the silence that
is only wind and dust around you you can
feel the skin pressing against your ribs
as hunger constantly pains you as you
look from window to window of each
desolate house looking for a small piece
of shelter then seemingly out of nowhere
small bit of orange gleam dances in the
horizon is it a candlelight forest
something else it’s only about 50 or 60
feet away from you do you continue to go
down the road or in bed
polite
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you
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