Satine Phoenix DM Tips: Dread Special

[Music] hello and welcome to GM tips the show where my friends and I share with you our thoughts and suggestions on how to gamemaster your role-playing game I’m your host Satine Phoenix co-creator of Mazur Khanna and a dungeon master on Fury’s reach some of you want to play your typical fantasy game running through dungeons and gathering items to take back to sell for gold there’s nothing wrong with that in fact it’s actually pretty fun sometimes you want to dive deeper into your role-playing experience want to be surrounded by it to breathe it in as if the story were a decadent incense we want the game to excite us scare us make us feel something more today we discussed creating mood and with our special guest Ivan Van Norman suspense let’s dissect this by looking at fear inducing themes people enjoy these because they make them feel intensely suspense anticipation giving the player enough time and specific limited curated information to fill in the blanks with their own fears and imagination deep fear isn’t created by showing you a scary monster it’s knowing there’s a monster nearby but wondering what the monster could possibly be watching a monster eat a dead body versus watching pieces of bone picked clean get thrown into a large wet pile of bones one at a time from around a corner would you hear the knowing and snarling of the monster knowing it’s one creature of vs. in my imagination it’s the possibility of monsters that could be big enough to tear me apart it’s the possibility of any monster that could make that specific noise allow the players to sit on that fear and anticipation so the monster actually comes along they have a built-in fear making it much more frightening than it actually is the players react to both the monster and their fear of it mood setting let’s use a room to describe mood setting in this room we have four walls of equal length one door made of wood with a brass handle a dresser with photos and a jewelry box on top a four-poster bed with pillows and a blanket a closet with two sliding mirrored doors two side tables with lamps if drawn on a map it would look like outlines of a simple bedroom the players would know generally how they would navigate the room if I wanted to fill the players of anxiety and describe the room you walk through a brightly lit hallway at the end of which the lacquered wooden door partially opened the sound of television blasts through the opening as you walk in you cover your ears as the black and white men on this old TV engaged in battle from across the room their screams and gunshots bombard your senses the drawers of the dresser open and close hanging and scatter about the floor into shuffled bed picture frames and images obscured by broken glasses strategically on the dresser a jewelry box overturned reveals a twisting ballerina walk you through the room there’s an electricity in the air and the carpet feels like walking on crumpled paper if I wanted to feel the players of dread I’d say you walk through a hallway the only light emanating dimly from under a door to the room at the end the quiet in the house envelops you you open the old wooden door its brass handle as wet and the door creaks open with a loud and you notice a light from the rooms coming from an old TV half revealed from within the closet static and nothing else shadows pour over most of the room the dust thick in the air covers a dresser in the bed walking through the room he smelled a heavy musk of fresh blood suddenly BAM the door slams shut and the shadows rustle across the walls over the bed then down to the floor and you get the feeling something that’s stalking you from under the bed and if I wanted to fill the players of mystery I described the room the hallways warm candlelit sconces leads you to an elaborately carved wooden door it’s antique handle gives easily and you’re flooded with a sweet smell of cinnamon and apples and something else as you gaze into the massive chamber the carvings on the grand oak four-poster bed dancing the light of the lamps on the night stands the frames on the photos of the dresser stand out from the dark burgundy walls but the item that catches your attention is the long ivory and Jade jewelry box that sits further down the dresser it’s gold lock unlatch in each of these three descriptions you’re filled with different emotions based on what you imagine from what I described GM skills reading people and listening in order to navigate player emotions it’ll be good to exercise you’re reading people and listening skills players will tell you what they’re afraid of or what they’re interested in or their body language is and how or what they say next rule playing as they say isn’t acting it’s reacting the game master provides the environment and NPCs the players react to what’s given to them the game has to react to their reactions and so on it’s playing like kids be honest about your reactions relinquish yourself to the agreed-upon story and play in the most honest way listen to one another and make your choice about what to do next based on what your party does this is role-playing this is game mastering reading people and listening gives you the ingredients to hit those perfect time moments to evoke the emotion you want your players and sometimes those moments live in the silence today we discussed creating mood and with our special guests I’ve been banned Normand suspense I could roll on but instead let’s discuss this with the creator of sagas of sundry Dredd outbreak undead the ABCs of RPGs and the king of suspense Ivan Van Norman welcome thank you having me back it’s good that you’re back it’s back at the table talking about GM tips and we get to talk about after a big thing like dread happening you can actually go a beautiful experience thank you so much for sharing we were literally just a silly talking even beforehand it’s like you have all the best qualities did you bring into a player it was joyful it was honest it was intense so many tears you did all the things that you want in every player that you have in a game don’t even you let’s talk about you for a little bit Mukerjee mess sure you are hoping to mind if I don’t make eye contact because it’s gonna be hard okay tell me what’s up you have this way we already have this deep masculine voice right but because you like to play games that are very true and honest to you like man you really utilize the scary and you got a little intense sometimes and it was fun cuz you don’t get to just like a player you don’t often always get the opportunity to like stretch your boundaries and go outside of your comfort zone in order to get something that’s really impactful but we were all in such a like a heated mix of like creating cool moments that it was really it was it was good to be able to come out and just be like especially in the last episode just like having that intensity just come out on that certain level have it feel like have it translated into what you guys were dealing with at the time it was it was terrifying and satisfying even in my own skin nobody could tell we were so involved and you your voice was because of the where you were sitting and it was very strategic the way you laid everybody out and and the lighting and the sound of your voice came from like the back of our heads and the way when we pulled from the tower you would hover around us and the pacing of your voice was very interesting and it was a it was usually you don’t get a chance to do that at a traditional table to like get up and have that like that that thing that wants to talk to you it was essentially at a demon in the angel that we’re supposed to be talking to but instead it’s the dungeon master telling you what you need to be dealing with right now it’s a book it’s a good bit that but that but that like that begins all the way character creation – yeah and you were very good about nurturing us you’re like okay this isn’t a normal game guys let’s talk about put a lot of disclaimers on this show there was a lot of disclaimers on Dredd that we expressed late I felt it was important for me to tell everyone I said I said we’re gonna do some bad things you don’t have to do any of the challenges you can choose not to do any of the challenges at any time if you’re uncomfortable but I’m going in I think it early the words was is that I want you to make all the hard choices and I’m my job is to hurt you essentially like I what I want is is I want you to feel so good about the character that you created that when we break that shell with true and honest fear if I’m doing my job right and I’m breaking that shell then there’s still the gooey center that’s inside is your character and not satine another disclaimer though is that we are good friends yes and everybody that was there are good friends so we all had a base trust base trust which is important because it’s actually it’s easier to have an argument in character with someone if you already have that base trust yeah in place you get to strangers even really strong actors you kind of have to like because there’s that millisecond where people can question is this something that is okay for me to do right now yeah that can sometimes mean the difference between like a good performance and a phenomenal performance you know yeah that was really interesting because I innately felt like I had to apologize ahead of time so when we all walked into the green room I was like I just want to tell you all I’m really sorry because I’m going to say things and you need to know that Satine is not saying this right the character sat is saying this but because we all had those things to say to one another we all were like I’m gonna say things to you know you feel very kindred to you in that because I did the same thing even when we sat down and was ready to begin it’s like I’m I apologize in advance for any anxiety stress fear and issues I may bring up in this game but I’m gonna do it it’s gonna happen and and just know that this is still a safe place and if you don’t want to do some of these things or if it’s too much you just yell cut and just tell me never got there because we were all really comfortable so that is actually kind of a build-up to the suspense right so you’re instilling this idea into the players heads before you even start playing the game right you say it’s a scary game okay it’s a scary game but this is your background yeah and I want you to push and I want you to go deep into your emotions in your head and so before we even get there were frightened right and that’s the point I couldn’t begin literally a character creation and when we did the questionnaires remember we did the first round of questionnaires with be just the ittt game and that was all very standard dread like let’s create some good character arcs in which to create some moments and intensity out of but then the second one and the second follow-up meeting that I did with you guys was about okay now how can we take this interesting little character son that you make and how can we make her up oh here’s a long time yes like a lot can happen oh I could how did it happen and it was literally about that transition of like okay you have a really interesting character set and this is something that we’re working on but what’s really going on like in to be able to go into there and say that and make and make whoever you’re playing with ask that question I’m sorry have the game master ask that question and have that player answer it in a way that they’re like okay well I guess there is something going on I had no idea that I would make her that that character was going I guess I shouldn’t say all the details but you know there were no I think it’s fair to say some of the details I mean she lived you know she got kicked out of her home she had a drug problem yeah she lived basically in a tent under a bridge like those were all things we discovered in character creation yeah and they were things that you were like well maybe she’s had some trouble at home like is she having problems at home or is she like did she get kicked out of her house and why did she get kicked out or why did she get kicked out of her house and you came up with all of the good stuff and it was just me basically saying said that’s good but how can we how can we make the hard choice these are good choices but how can we make a hard choice and you made all the hard choices you did it and then you brought them to the table with you and it was great suspense and drama timing we talked a bit about suspense and how what you say is scary right but it’s not always in what you say sometimes it’s about the silence as a game master how do you navigate that so suspense is sometimes about painting a picture of what’s not there versus what is there because it’s really easy to describe a monster but can you describe a monster without describing the monster can you paint the picture of how it sounds how it looks how it’s walking where is it coming from what’s it showing these are the things that build suspense not necessarily like the gruesome Moloch those are great for the initial reveals and like the the the like when you want to get that in adrenaline dump right there that’s fine for that but when you want to build suspense you want to you want to create negative space in the scenario instead of just painting the details in the line like the first alien was always my favorite like throw back into that because that was in a lot of those shots it was just a mask with a trash bag you know but because of the use of shadow and the use of light and the way that it it’s there and it’s not and just the fact that that 90% of that monster for like the air-duct scene it’s just a blip it’s just a sound bite and that’s what’s scary not seeing this thing like crawling through a hole coming at you ya know the thing is my favorite right where you have this entire movie of what it does and what and it the way people are reacting to it you never see it you never know what it is and it’s good because you know we earn when you are essentially give people permission to not trust each other they will then not trust each other and what that movie did is it gave every character in that story permission to not trust each other and that was the other part too about when inserting hop back to character creation real quick but we I think one of the first things we said to when we were putting things together it’s like I am giving you permission to make the hard choices this is not one of those shows where I want you to play light because like then naturally you don’t want to offend your fellow player you want you all know that playing games with each other we want to help each other right we want to make each other feel good right but you need that permission you need that permission because if you don’t get that permission then you’re just an you know that’s making people uncomfortable yeah but everybody knows what they’re getting into and it’s consensual and everyone’s permissions are asked and everyone knows what they’re getting into you can make some really magnificent stuff so yeah it’s a and then beyond just drama and time like you learn at some point when you have watched either enough movies or you’ve seen the reaction from people it’s back to when we were first we’re talking all those ages ago is when the first episode of GM tips about listening yeah to your players drama and suspense is still about listening and body language and there’s a moment in dread in which I wasn’t planning on going up and touching darby at all like that was not a plan at all but looking at her i could see that she was very much at ease and in horrid as often about the calm before the storm right yeah and so she was clearly in a calm space and time and stuff and I actually had to ask myself as I was getting at moving towards like is this too much right now is like what I’m going to do to her right now is this is this me being aggressively insane or is this gonna make a good moment and I had to give myself permission to be like this is what you want to do you can see how relaxed she is right now let’s do something about that yeah let’s make this and she jumped out of her skin and we all saw you can see it on film yeah so here’s the thing like dread is an extreme example it’s an extreme example she’s yes so how do four players who are just making tabletop games they want to add suspense to their games like what can they do without having to get up and move around right the big thing is is that use like you can use props in small things to help build suspense like mood and lighting and tension but I think it is just about going to your players and saying I really would like to make a dark game and I’d like you to play this dark a game with me and I’d like to make some interesting choices with you that I think would be fun and then cuz once everybody’s committed into it then as the dungeon master you just start looking at how the breadcrumbs are placed and it’s literally as simple as is this player really into this story hook because you know they have an inner demon like okay this character has an inner demon and how do we milk that so that it works with the other players or this character is really afraid of the dark okay well how can we make them feel safe and a light and hopeful and then out of nowhere drop them into darkness like how can you you have to be a little malicious when you play that suspense and terrible because your job is to take people’s fears yeah and exploit them but in like say a D&D game you can add those elements in and out of scenes right so I guess it’s more about saying I would like to do this once in a while really want to push you sometimes and I’ll lift you back but you know this is a kind of game we’re gonna play let’s breathe because it is all about you know you pull back to everyone can take a breath otherwise it’s just all drivel all the time yeah and it’s difficult yeah in a standard game when you’re just kind of having fun with your friends if you want to add some suspense and tension first to it first of all get permission from your group give yourself permission to do it and then find something unique in your characters that you can go and build suspense around or if you don’t really want to have to be character focusing you just want to get a monster or something that’s terrifying inside of it learn how you can create that negative space of whatever that creature is if it’s a ghoul how do you show what the ghouls done before you get to the ghoul if it’s something like an undead dracolich it’s like what does this reign of destruction and what does what are these details that showcase how and terrifying and terrible and gory this Lich’s before you even get to them because there’ll be so much more scared of your monster if you show them just what they’re capable instead of showing them what they’re capable of when they get there because then they have to react to the most extreme while they’re in the moment so that’s exact accrete versus threat right oh yes creep versus threat so when I was putting all this together and even in some of my older horror games like without break and stuff you sometimes have to balance this idea of creep versus threat creep is what is the visceral terrible things that people fear and how do you get that reaction out of them with this versus the threat which is actually something that’s physically harming their life like a like a cultist would be high threat because they’re usually out to kill you or do things or move things together you know while the like the the the pool of blood and the sacrificial altar that they’ve put together is high creep but it doesn’t pose a lot of threat to the players so you have to balance it you have to give them a little bit of creep and then you have to give them a little bit of threat because if it’s just creep the whole time then you kind of a boring uneventful yeah bane yeah but if you’re just doing threat then it’s not scary of an action film yeah you know what I mean so where do you get it and in the case of dread it was very clear in my mind what was high creep and what was high threat and what was kind of a middle creep and middle threat without getting into spoilers – yeah well in that it was interesting because we had already played a session right and so we brought our own level of fear into the second session right and you had expectations which thankfully I broke yeah you know so let’s go into that honesty it would not the experience that I had playing with you and Matt and everybody else for keep using dread as an analog would not have been the experience that it was if you guys weren’t 100% totally honest 100% said that what you were doing how you were doing it so I mean this is more of a question for you like what did you feel like brought honesty into into what you were doing well no cell phones yeah I mean there were cameras everywhere when we not with their result there’s more cameras than I’ve ever experienced on a set it was really cool yeah but yeah the way we were sitting and engaged with one another the surrounding really helped the lighting helped but we were ready to play and we were so we knew our characters very well we knew what we were capable of right we were excited to bring in our backstory and we at all all of us wanted had a timing thing where we wanted to plant certain seeds throughout and then you hovering and it was just you created this world for us to exist in and we just wanted to be a part of it so bad and you committed to it when you got in there you didn’t look back which is that’s that old adage of like no distractions at the table right yeah so you you were so invested into what was going on there is a part that didn’t make it in I think it was like Episode four and you got in episode 4 you guys cut sound in the Edit which was genius but I think I screamed louder than I’ve ever screamed before I was like one of those guttural cries rooms and I couldn’t believe it came out of my mouth oh but it was because yeah I’m like sorry I broke the mic but it was really interesting because it was we knew we were playing a game but we were so invested that I could see everything I could see the creatures coming at us I could see that little pinhole light everything was intense we were afraid and I think I was holding a little toy it was the most charming adorable thing I’ve ever seen to see that’s the thing about honesty – it’s like silly moments like that where you’re holding a plastic toy exit your character holding it as if it was actually going but it’s the only thing you had and you found it as an anchor and I saw that honesty there I’m like yeah she’s she knows that’s useless but it’s making her feel better right now yes so yeah it’s the honesty but it’s being able to be honest with everybody and not only in myself every single person was honest nobody was distracted we were patiently waiting to hear what everyone else was saying and the quiet and you’re quiet it was all encompassing so the suspense isn’t just something that you do is what I’m you crated – absolutely it’s the entire group yeah everyone somebody breaks it there everybody steps out right it’s good get you were definitely carrying the torch and if it was a marathon you’re right no one ever stopped to breathe no one ever put the torch down at any time all just kept running and rolling with it which was great and it made me think about how like and a lot of even in acting because we were role-playing and we were improving and we were all acting at the same time but it really made me think about how you guys were just reacting and listening to each other like you role playing for you was not just acting flowing the drama and telling the story about my magnificent character you were just reacting I got terrible actors what role playing game and a lot of your acting was listening to and everyone else was – they were just listening to the tables and instead of thinking that that that kind of that that kind of whole you can get to in as an actor like what’s my next line what’s my next line what’s my next line like be ready with the performance of my next line yes said you were listening and you in your brain were like okay no no that’s not how it is or it’s like or you you burst it out with what your character was actually thinking because you’re actually thinking like that but exactly you know it doesn’t matter what lines you had and in a weird way that’s what the great part about role playing is is because it removes scripted content out the door and it says Satine she is yelling at you right now what are you gonna do about it oh hell no this is what it comes down to and yeah that’s how you create some honesty yeah so I’m going to jump in to the last three questions okay but you’ve already answered them so I’m gonna ship them a little bit all right have your game house rules changed a bit since Dredd I haven’t had a lot of pre a lot of house games since the last time we talked and read because we’ve been having so many things read but I would say definitely more there’s a lot more pregame in the sense of expectations like I always talked about I think even in the last time we chatted I talked about managing the expectations of your players but now that feels even more important to me than it’s ever been because if we’re gonna do really intense things I want them to know or if literally the expectation is cuz a lot of circumstances like a house game I wouldn’t want to be intense that’s why I do a dungeon crawl with my friends yeah so I might be like guys I know that your were like you know king of suspense and blah blah blah and all this stuff can we just like kill dragon can we just do that can I can I literally just roll up a really really mad arranger and just shoot some arrows right now you know yeah and being able to be okay with saying that and and no worries so you know a new favorite GM moment I think it has to be either between I think one of them either has to be between Darby’s legit scream and clasping her and feeling feeling her body like crushed into a tiny ball it was the one two three moment in which like I saw someone and I was like wow I really scared them like I mean I was trying to create a cool moment in all this but it’s like no I really like that was a lot for them she needed many hugs so many hugs afterwards and I and I actually I actually kind of vaguely remember after that being no I don’t think so the only it was any care after that because we were still so in the moment but I remember in my brain being like Oh sweetie I’m so sorry like well I’m doing this to you right now but I’m so sorry know between I’ve abandoned she loved it it was the best that’s also the part of it too if you have as a GM if you’re malicious you have to ask some distich players as well our vice versa if the GM’s a little sadistic you have to have some malicious players yeah masochistic yes all the words let’s start with them and the second one that was really sincere was is talking and narrating and telling you during episode four and having everything kind of happened and then walking around the table looking at everyone’s reactions and getting to an end and looking at you and you’re already looking at me but it’s just like mascara everywhere and I’m like oh like what you mean cry was one of those where it was like it was honest and I had like I felt your sadness for a moment and it was I used that it was like oh my god that’s really really really sad right now let’s use that against everybody else in the table at the moment you know so it felt a little bit like sadness Taichi yeah spread spread the sadness around the table a little bit it makes me seem so hey I know TM tip okay last question okay new GM tip if you’re looking to create suspense or even horror tension even in your games the first person you need to give yourself permission to do something crazy – is yourself like look inside of whoever you are as a GM and be like okay these are the things that I have done and these are the things that I’m most proud of how can I take it one step further what can I do to commit one step more than where I’ve been at previously and I would say look at the one moment that you’re the most proud of in a game that you’ve played how did that make you feel and then ask yourself okay what’s the next step like if you made a really grand moment because all of your players are like they got the artifact they were looking for and they’re celebrating and all the crowds cheering around them how do you scale that up even more to make them feel like they’ve saved the world that they’ve saved the universe that they save this entire dimension you know and then how do you take those little things that they celebrated and just crank it up to 11 likewise in fear how do you take something that felt really good and then just commit to it because I will say that that one game I just broke all my own boundaries before I even broke yours it’s like I had to give myself permission to go hard or go home so with that to end this whole bit of suspense fear all all the setting the mood and tone I’m gonna go back to your original GM tip was aftercare this is very important and people don’t talk about this a lot when you push people’s boundaries you have to spend time with them afterwards for hour two hours six hours eight hour game over the most multiple sessions just make sure you spend time with your players talk with them they need like a half hour 15 minutes an hour just give them attention and time to pull them out because not a lot of people are can do the things that we did and read right it’s very very intense it’s not always it’s not especially if you have a lot that they’re going on with at that time too if you’re hitting buttons you’re gonna hit buttons and you’re right absolutely you have to create a safe space so that’s a safe space go talk to your players and go and give them hugs tell them that you still love them tell them that they’re great people and that they’re making amazing moments with you like be a good person through through yeah I mean we to draw a little bit of comparison to this when we were done with the game we basically all just like how to group hug and we and we laid it all out what was happening and then we were able to take that collective and kind of put it away yeah I mean it took like 12 hours of writing each other telling us how each other how much we love each other and shaking down group texts and you know and and people other people driving I’m home there was another part too it’s like sometimes after a big session like that you need someone else to drive you home yeah very important things you’ve just witnessed a whole lot of I have an amazing this that’s our show before we go Ivan please share with everyone where we can find you on the internet so I’m on all the internets under Hydra underscore Lourdes Instagram Facebook all the fun stuff Twitter’s you can see me on sagas 100 red which you can check it on the project alpha calm at the moment and every Friday playing board games here on geek and sundry from 4:00 p.m. to 6:30 p.m. as well as Wednesday nights at twitch.tv slash DND with mais Arcana doing Furies reach in which I play johan wild ohio there who is a deliciously difficult dandy who happens to also be a well writer funny that as always i’m setting phoenix at sateen phoenix you can ask me GM took questions at hashtag asks a teen and find me every Sunday at noon on maser connoisseur phone echo on twitch TV / Mazur Khanna and every Tuesday night 7:00 p.m. dungeon mastering on twitch.tv slash D and E and if you haven’t seen it already check out SOG as a son read read on project alpha calm thank you for watching us here on geek & sundry and see you next time I even yes would you please as you stand on a lonely road snow falls around you feet deep as each one of the crunching bits of sound echoes in the silence that is only wind and dust around you you can feel the skin pressing against your ribs as hunger constantly pains you as you look from window to window of each desolate house looking for a small piece of shelter then seemingly out of nowhere small bit of orange gleam dances in the horizon is it a candlelight forest something else it’s only about 50 or 60 feet away from you do you continue to go down the road or in bed polite [Music] [Applause] you [Music] [Applause]

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Satine Phoenix DM Tips: Dread Special – Mood and Suspense

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