Not legendary initiative

10 thoughts on “Not legendary initiative

    • Zoltar says:

      Legendary Raphael

      Yes there’s a little controversy because legendary action could be taken out of the Dragon turn but not before PCs winning initiative, but at end of the turn of PC that has highest initiative.

      As legendary action said: “Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature’s turn. ”

      If you want you can tweet to @ChrisPerkinsDnD that was the Monster Manual lead designer or @JeremyECrawford


      • Ok, that clarify to me a lot, however, correct me if I’m wrong, but if you have a legendary creature fighting alone, it can’t use any legendary action? Or it might be able to use only one at the end of its own turn and waste the remaining actions?

        • Zoltar says:

          If a legendary creature fight alone can use its legendary actions at the end of PCs turn.

          I give you an example:

          Gord the rogue and Bargle the wizard are fighting an Adult Red Dragon.
          Gord init 21
          Adult Red Dragon init 15
          Bargle init 8

          So Gord starts first and in his turn Move and Attack the Dragon, after the Gord’s attack the Red Dragon can use his Legendary action: a Tail Attack versus Gord.
          After that is the Dragon turn that use Fire Breath and move.
          Last Bargle Cast an Invisibility spell and moves behind a huge rock.

          Adult Red Dragon could use a Legendary Action (Detect) after Bargle end his movement behind the rock, but Dragon has already spent a Tail Attack (Legendary Action) in this turn.

          I hope that the example can help

          • Thanks, the exemple was great, I just have one more question regarding the initiative. In my campaign we decided by the speed initiative, however since everyone comes from 3.5 times we diced use D10, however due feat alert, adventure size (dwarf, gnome), weapon speed and so on, I hardly never can win my players and the monsters now are too slow, since their only + is the Dexterity, so my questions are:

            1- Should I keep D20 in oder to keep the combat more unpredictable.

            2- As long as everyone declare the actions before roll the initiative who should declare first, DM or players? What I’m doing is roll a dice, even I declare (DM) odds player and we take turns declaring after that, but what is the “official way”.

            And another thing I noticed is by doing actions at “same time”, who loses the initiative, if have no ranged attach is always missing the opportunity to fight specially when you are in a open are, for example, my group all 4 LV 1, player they defeated a werewolf CR 3.

            They took only 3 rounds and the werewolf didn’t even touch any of them (if he did, probably would kill on first attack).

            My group thrilled by their strategy, however I’m not sure if I’m doing right the way of initiative, if I’m I should use just melee attack on closed spaces, like dungeon and ranged in wide open areas or maybe get back to D20 for initiative, since the movement is being the best feature in combate after ranged weapons.

            • Zoltar says:

              Legendary Raphael

              In the Dungeon Master’s Guide p.270/271 there’s initiative variant based on Speed Factor.
              Numbers are a bit different than past editions.

              If you want to use D10 I suggest to halve Feat Alert bonus (+5, rounded down +2) because +5 is based for a D20 initiative not D10.

              1. Maybe could be the better approach because all the rule system is based on D20.

              2. In this edition none need to declare actions, so roll initiative and don’t think about it, so you and your players can react during the combat round. Example: If your Goblin Boss is hit by a critical death blow and its minions are still alive all your PC can change their target meanwhile you can decide to let them flee to reorganize!

              There’s no “same time” initiative, if your players rolls the same initiative and have the same initiative modifiers, the first is the caracter that have higher dexterity as you can read at PHB p.189

              In past editions we all loved to put “one big bad guy” but in these new editions is better to put some different enemy (use some critters) so you can confuse your players. Example for your werewolf: could be wise to have him sorrounded by 3 wolves so he can trasform himself into a wolf and hide with other 3 wolves and all four wolves can Dash to melee the characters, thereafter he can transform in werewolf and hit with claws and bites.

              Finally my advice is to use D20 with speed factor variant as described in DMG.

              • In fact now I read (again) the DMG. 270/271, in fact I took the initiative by speed, from there, however I miss the part about keep secret notes and announce calling by number (in my opinion it would be quite slow), however, if you can change action based on your action, as you mentioned, how can I avoid everyone decide use a dagger than to get +2 in the initiative than after change to 9th circle spell?

                The confusion was the part in “Rolling Initiative”, where it says, “After deciding on action, everyone rolls initiative and apply modifier”. (I have to confess that somehow, I’ve “ignored” the rest).

                Based on it, I didn’t let people change, thus what happened was that people that lose when arrived in the place they supposed to go the target was no longer there, so unless they were using ranged attack, melee became quite useless, but I have to confess that my players based on it, started thinking great strategies, like a chess game, anticipating the best option, between win and lose initiative and things like polearm, became outstanding, since they could reach at 10ft.

                Although some players that didn’t understood they were quite slow and missed action many times, but at some point as I mentioned I was thrilling fighting against my other players like in a chess battle (and now I realised that I’ve made a mistake).

                The fact of the werewolf being alone, was because there were 4 wolfs before, but when 1 died, I made them flee, since the werewolf was CR 3 and I thought that it alone would be deadly, but as I mentioned you above (I’m emphasising) based on my “initiative”, since you couldn’t change your action, when the one that lose the initiative act, they would walk to an empty space and “hit the air”.

                • Zoltar says:

                  Legendary Raphael,

                  I try to answer your question.
                  If everyone decide to attack with +2 dagger and after change to 9th circle spell they Initiative number will change and they will wait.
                  Sometimes in my party rogues that wins initiative delay their action waiting fighters clash against enemy and after attack the same fighter enemy with Sneak Attack (check the rule p.96). In this case Rogue will take a init number lower than Fighter for all his turns.

                  I give you an Example:
                  Bargle the wizard decide to use his Dagger +2 and his total initiative is 18.
                  Enemies has initiative 14.
                  Bargle decide to drop dagger and cast a Meteor Swarm but spell has -9 initiative modifier so Bargle now has init 5 (-2 from dagger SF and -9 from 9th Wiz Spell SF)

                  So Bargle during his long casting will see enemies volley arrows to him (enemies has init 14)

                  Next turn Bargle will have 5 on initiative unless he spend all the next round to wait and round before he can choose in which initiative number take the action.

                  • I got what you mean, so even if people declare their action they are allowed to change it at any moment and receive the properly penalty for that. I might see what I’ll so, since characters that will act later always will change their action it is inevitable when you see the results of the pior actions changing the initial scenario.

                    I meant the “surprise” by initiative is not so effective, I mean, you can declare than roll, but after all know the roll result you can assume a new action in your turn and as started in DMG 270 the badly wounded fight still able to charge the troll, because he know that the priest will heal it.

                    Now I’ll make you an example and you correct me if I’m wrong.
                    The fight, since he is badly wounded decide take an action for dodge and move 6 sq. back, the cleric also move 6 sq. back and use heal in the fight and the troll will attack the cleric. – Those are the action, now the initiative, Fighter 15, cleric 18, troll 11.
                    Fight decide rush and attack the troll, since the cleric will act first and heal him, Fight change his action and subtract -2 from his long sword, now his initiative drops to 13, but he knows that, but he stills faster than the troll.

                    Even in the scenario of hiding initiative, we can have the same result, since the cleric will act first healing the fighter, than the fight can change his action and attack the troll anyway, since he would be healed.

                    • Zoltar says:

                      Correct, fighter will be faster than troll even cleric will heal him because both PCs know that troll is slower and clumsy.

                      My advice is: don’t worry if combat actions change during turns or your PC know wich is the AC of your monster (after some hit they will know), could be, like you said before, a strategic game.
                      You are the DM and not a player that is fighting against all your players; you can hide your rolls, change enemy HP, AC and give a troll boss a fire resistance potion!

                      “The secret we should never let the Dungeon Masters know is that they don’t need any rules.”

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